Ann: Do you remember middle school? Do you remember the friendship issues, gossip, getting mad, excluding someone, talking on the phone for hours on end.

Were you popular or on the outside looking in? If you somehow breezed on through middle school unscathed by the harsh social and emotional hell that it is – good for you. But chances are, your kid’s not been so lucky. It was intense THEN, but smart phone ramped up that intensity 1000-fold. Your kid’s friendships, their social and emotional world is completely intertwined with their smart phone.

This is Speaking of Teens, the podcast that helps parents who are struggling to find peace and connection with their teens. My name is Ann Coleman; I’m an attorney turned parent educator and a mom who has been there - and I’m on a mission to help you build a stronger relationship and decrease the conflict with your kid so you can help them grow into the young adult they’re meant to be.

On today’s episode I talk to Jessica Speer, the author of three wonderful books for kids and teens, who has two teenage daughters herself - her beta readers. She has a masters in social sciences, but what really makes her an award-winning author is her knack for writing that connects with her readers. Her books, Middle School (Safety Goggles Advised), BFF or NRF (not really friends), and The Phone Book, are packed with quizzes, choose your ending scenarios, stories, and secret codes…because she knows what she’s competing with.

I recently met with Jessica to discuss middle school, friendships, and smart phones.

And the first thing I told her was how much middle school sucked for me. From 11 to 13 I was short, without a waist, had braces and really short reddish hair (from the Sun-In I had sprayed all over it). I was NOT one of the cute girls. There were friendship issues, a couple of bullies – I’m talking to you Linda Pinkston and Lisa Thompson, and lots and lots of crying and anxiety and calls to my mom from school. Certainly NOT a period of my life I’d want to revisit – even in a DeLorean.

Jessica: Ann, so interesting you say that because a lot of us as parents don't have the best high school or middle school memories anyway. So we might be a little anxious as our kids enter this stage because we remember it's really hard. But what I found helpful to parents know is kind of what's going on developmentally because there's a lot that explains why it is kind of a, um, a tricky time for kids. So, one is they're all on a different Developmental, you know, pace.

So, some are way farther than others. And then, and there's no better example of this in middle school. Like, if you look at like the 6th grade or 7th grade class, you know, some are, you know, they look like they still might be in 4th grade where some look like they could be, you know, sophomores in high school.

So, there's a lot of differences going on there. Um, they're also at the stage of life where they're starting to really explore who they are and, and who are their friends and what Do they like? Um, another developmental thing that's happening is so in elementary school, when things are a little bit easier, a lot of relationships are based on play and proximity, you know, who happens to be there to play with.

And so that that's fairly simple. You know, still some complicated stuff going on in elementary school for sure. But once we get to the middle school, it's not really about that anymore. Now it's about shared interests. And feelings of acceptance. So, a lot of kids in middle school start to change what they're interested in too.

So, say they were always into, you know, maybe some specific video game or something like that, and now they've gotten to middle school and they're actually into something different. You know, that in itself can shift friendships or say one person is way into crushes and their friend is not. I mean, and that could be a shift in friendship there, too.

So just knowing that this is really normal. There's the kids are going through such changes within themselves. It explains why there is kind of this ripple effect in their friendship. And I read one study. There's one study that was done back at UCLA. They followed 6, 000 first year middle schoolers, and two thirds of them ended up changing their friendships in the first year.

So just knowing that as parents that, okay, change is the norm. And we know that this is a time of life where they're, their friendships play a bigger role in their lives, you know? So, so friends become more important because they're individuating more from us as parents. So friendships become more important.

And when there's a lot of change in that, that can feel really unsettling in kids. You know, so that sometimes explains why we see some unsavory behaviors because they're navigating this, all this change and maybe a time where they're not exactly sure where they fit or they really want to fit. And so we see some behaviors in kids, you know, that we, we, you know, are not the best behavior. It's not their best selves, but it's because they're, they're almost in survival mode as to how, how can I connect and belong with this, with a peer group?

Ann: Right. Okay. What, what is it that. Now, do you find that, and I'm, I'm thinking that you do, but that girls are different from boys in this respect with their friends and how they interrelate and how they have arguments and get back together and all that good stuff. What's the difference between the boys and the girls at this age?

Jessica: You know, I, I found that there's a lot of similarities, but there are differences. And one of them is I found girls tend to start earlier. And that makes sense. If we look at like what's physically going on with girls, girls are two years ahead when it comes to puberty.

And, and I'm not gonna, you know, assign this all to just hormones. I, I think they start this shift where they're starting to explore their identity and they're starting to shift from play to, um, just sort of, relationships based on different things. So I found all that happens earlier. In fact, that's what, what inspired my first book, which is BFF or NRF, not really friends, a girls guide to happy friendship. I started that out of a friendship program I ran for late elementary school, because I was finding that, you know, there was some of these, these struggles and friendships and changes for girls was happening even in elementary school, and then maybe peaking in middle school.

Where boys that might start a couple years later, you know, so that's one thing I did notice. And then another gender difference that I'd notice is for girls, it might play out more publicly and socially, you know, where, and this makes sense, if we're going to (and I hate to make gender assumptions here) but, you know, as women, sometimes we do like to talk about things more with our friends and get validation. And so for girls, that might happen more. But then that also there in lies drama, you know, so when we are looking for support from our friends, because we just had this really tough conversation with another friend, we talked to the group and then all of a sudden, you know, it's, it's a whole group drama situation that I wasn't seeing that play out that way quite as much in the boy world. And that's, that could just be because boys don't tend to share as much about what they're struggling with.

Ann: Yeah, I can see that. And that, and that's what I remember from my middle school days was that you would say something and it would get blown out of proportion by the person that you said it to, or they would say something and you would agree and then they go tell the person she said so and so.

And I can only imagine how that plays out now with social media and, you know, and I know, I mean. I guess we can mix our books up if we want to, but I mean, that is, I'm sure has, you know, just escalated all the friendship drama between the girls. I mean, have you seen that?

Jessica: Oh, totally. And so now drama is often now called digital drama. So it's, you know, it's the same sort of arguments that might start within two people and then grow to group and have some complicated group dynamics that is happening like publicly online, which is, which is really hard because it might be more publicly than it even. It could be, you know, that where it's even grown beyond the group. And now the, you know, the whole grade might be, you know, getting involved. So I think, you know, for, for this one we could coach our kids to just realize when it's time to stop the online conversation - sometimes don't even start it. Like don't even, yeah, but it's funny, like group chats, especially in the preteen years, they can get pretty complicated, you know, so I, I feel for kids, it's complicated enough to try to have these conversations in person, but now we're going to shift them online. It's especially complicated where things are taken the wrong way, or they're not said the right way, but it's, it's pretty common for kids to try to solve things online.

So just helping kids understand that it’s really hard to communicate well in person, and it's even harder to communicate well online. So, when we need to take it offline, just take it offline or, or stop the conversation and say, hey, let's chat about this later, you know, but you're giving them some tools so that they can figure out how to exit these tough things that they are playing out online and really often these days.

Jessica: And you know, what I think is so tricky for parents today, since we are, you know, we're still trying to wrap our heads around how do we parent in this digital age, because the, you know, the train left the station well before any sort of, you know, clear guidelines or even tools that were created for kids.

You know, so, so cool kids are on tools that were not actually designed for them. And there's a lot of content out there that is not at all appropriate for kids. So, so that's where we find ourselves as parents. So that is really hard. But what is especially hard and important for parents to know is that, you know, social media and texting is the main communication channel for kids these days.

Okay. So going back to our earlier point where this is the stage in their life where they just want to connect with their parents, you know, they're individuating from us. And now the way that many of them are connecting is through these digital devices, which everybody is getting at different points in time and with different rules, you know?

So that is really hard for kids and families to navigate. I mean, in a perfect world, wouldn't it be great if it was like a driver's license where, okay, you hit this age and prior to hitting this age, you get all this training and so that everybody's on absolutely this level. Absolutely. Yeah. We're on this level playing field now.

Everybody's doing the best they can to figure out how to navigate this. And some are giving their kids phones in elementary school. And some, some might be, um, just a phone that only allows, you know, phone calls to the parents or more like a gizmo watch. Some might give them a fully enabled smartphone where some are holding out as long as they can.

And, you know, I'm not going to say what is the right way to do. I'm just talking about the complexity of this. Because, you know, kids, they want to connect with their peers. And if that's how their peers are connecting, um, that's a real challenge for parents. And, and, you know, so I get the question is when is the right time?

And there's one of my mentors in this space, Dr. Lisa Damore. And I love to hear what she says on this topic. And I agree with what she says is like, as you know, delay as long as you can, but notice when this becomes just. It really becomes a problem for your kid. So um, you know, if it's getting to the point where you're in seventh grade and your child is now so socially isolated because they don't have a way to connect with their peers and how they're connecting - that having a socially isolated seventh grader might be a worse situation than getting your kids, you know, that phone in seventh grade.

So, as parents, we have to weigh our option, like what is the best path, you know, for our particular child and knowing them well, having a lot of conversations about this, you know, not just right before, but like way before we've had a lot of conversations about safe and healthy digital habits. Um, and you know, those conversations are, you know, these days you start when they're toddlers and we, they keep going until they leave our home and they're 18 or whatever, you know, they're regular conversations.

So, as parents, knowing that our kids, you know, prefrontal Cortex is not fully formed. That's where we can come in, you know, from our place of “my job is to keep you safe and make sure that you're taking care of yourself.” You know, so sleep is 1 thing that we know is so important for every other area of your life.

Sleep is important for your mental health. It's going to help you in academics. It's going to help you achieve your goals. And I know you really actually do want to go to college someday, or I know you want to, you know, go play in this band or you want to be a professional soccer player. Sleep is so important.

So, “I hate to be the bad guy here, but I we need to make sure that we're protecting your sleep,” um, because, um, just having two teens now, I know those phones will buzz all night. I know they will. Kids will chat all night or there's notifications on. So, so just, so where it's different from the past is we might have to help there.

We might have to help set some family rules and some boundaries so that we're helping to protect some wellbeing, um, in that area. And then also the conversations about, “Yeah, there's some content you're going to see out there, that's really disturbing.” You know, so “what conversations do you want to have knowing that your kids are going to stumble upon stuff?”

So, you know, the average age kids are hitting porn now is like 11. So, we need to be prepared for that. If our kid has a connected device access to the internet, you know, the majority are seeing porn, you know, by age 11, which is not the soft porn of our upbringing, it's, it's, it's different these days.

So, you want to talk about that and say, “you're going to see, you might come across this. This is what it is. It's not at all attended intended for kids. And you might find it really disturbing and I'm nervous about that.” And “I want you to come talk to me because there's a lot I want to do to make sure to safeguard you that you don't think, you know, this is what, you know, sexual content looks like.

So, just yeah, just helping them help, you know, just those kind of preempting what they are going to stumble upon. Right now, phones and tech is a window to the world. Once we're connected to a browser.

Ann: Well, and I think, you know, I just did, I've done several episodes just recently about the surgeon general's report and the APA and, you know, all the recommendations and having a media plan, family media plan and all that kind of stuff and I'm in these mom groups and I see what moms are saying, and I think one of the big disconnections for us as adults is we don't really see what they're seeing. We're not searching the same way. We're not in the same apps. We're not familiar as they are with the spaces that they're in. And it's, you know, for instance, there was a conversation about porn the other day on one of the mom groups and, and everybody was like, well, you know, it's no different from a guy saying a playboy.

And I was like, Oh yes, it is. It is so different now. And they are getting the idea that this is the way sex is. And that's one of those things that is probably, you know, pushing forward all the sexual harassment of young girls and possible, you know, sexual harm that's, that's happening. So, you know, I think as parents, we almost have to get in there in these phones, be on the same apps, be in the same spaces and see what they're being exposed to.

I even read somebody said the other day, you know, go, um, get a TikTok account and say you're 13 or 14 or 15 and see what the algorithm starts shooting you. You know, it's, I just don't think we know what they're seeing.

Jessica: And we don't. And that's one thing that I think it's important for kids and teens to understand how algorithms work. And so, we know that if we happen to watch this video of a cute cat, that all of a sudden we're going to see a lot more cute cat and pet feeders. So, the algorithm is designed to show us what they think we're interested in. Things happen where, you know, you are searching for a term, you misspell it, and all of a sudden you're on this Pornhub, you know, and, but hey, my gosh, you know, you pause there because what the heck is this? And then the algorithm might send you more of that. Or say you're searching something on dieting. So, and the next thing you know, you're, you're on this rabbit hole of really just unrealistic body images and some diet culture. And so those are, I think, helping kids understand how algorithms work and how we all sometimes can get into these rabbit holes.

Um, you know, not even intentionally, but because we've not seen this content before, and it's kind of Thank Wow. It's, it's interesting. Um, so just understanding that that is, that's not uncommon at all with algorithms and we might need to take some action to change our feet. So if we find ourselves getting into this dark place that, you know, we don't want to be in anymore, we have to actually proactively go seek out something that is inspiring us and change that, you know, because kids are online so much these days.

So the average now, like teens, it's well over eight hours and this is not even schoolwork. So this is just. For entertainment person, eight hours and, you know, preteens over five. And so as parents, we can't even co browse that much. Like we have to go to work. So we, so it's, you know, I love, I love the idea of co browsing, but kids are spending so much time online.

There's no way for us to know. So again, coming back to conversations is letting them know that. Anytime they stumble upon something that is really alarming or disturbing, knowing that they can come to you and you're not going to, you know, get mad or judge them, you want to be there as a sounding board to help them navigate some of the really uncomfortable things they're seeing online.

That's going to work a lot better when they are younger and preteens there. Once they're teens, they're not going to report this stuff to you. You know, they're going to, you know, they're down. Be surfing on their own, but, you know, it does happen, but we can help them become really informed users of technology.

So they can then start to change their feed. And that takes some emotional intelligence. If they notice they're in a rabbit hole, that's really, you know, wearing on their self-esteem. in a dark mood, they have to be emotionally intelligent enough to know, hey, I gotta, I gotta back out of this. I gotta go to, you know, this person who always, you know, this influencer or whatever always leaves me feeling better about myself.

Um, so yeah, just helping them and that's, that's a learning curve for sure.

Ann: You know, you said, um, you know, I think you said something about being judgmental and I think that's, that's kind of the place where a lot of us are is that we are so judgmental about the screen time and the screens and we hate them, we all, you know, we don't mind when we're on it, but we hate seeing our kids on the screens because we'd rather see them outside and we'd rather see them hanging with their friends in person and we'd rather see them playing sports. And so I think it just bothers most parents to look over and see their kids face in their phone. And, you know, I don't, I don't know if you can speak to this or not, but I mean, can you talk to parents about how can we not be so judgmental? I mean, you did say before that, you know, this is the way they connect with their friends, but how can we Get past that judge judgment on, on them for doing what they're doing when this is what everybody is doing.

Yeah. And understand because this is, you know, it is where their social life is and it is where they're connecting with their peers. And I, I've noticed that, you know, part of it is staying in the know. So if they are not kind of up on what's happening on tick tock, or the latest meme or this, you know, they're, they're out of the loop with their friends.

You know, I wish it wasn't a 24 hour. You know, real, they're trying to keep up so hard, but I've even noticed, you know, with, with one of my teens, you know, she takes a tick tock break in the summer because she doesn't have to know, like she's not connecting with her peers as she is, as she is in school where you kind of have to know, you have to know what's going on.

But in the summer she's like, yeah, isn't that interesting? So she's like, ah, I don't have to know this. So, so that is so telling, like part of it is, is. Knowing what's going on with your peers, you know, or what, what people are connecting on with at school. They're talking about. Yeah, exactly. And if you know nothing about it, you're out of the loop.

So, um, that if there's a lot of social, you know, digital stress on kids is a real thing, you know, having to reply to texts in a timely manner, having to not leave snaps open, you know, and, and responding. So there's, there's a lot of complexities. Yes. Keep the streak. Um, so there's a lot of complexities to what's going on online.

So, you know, coming from almost a blaze of empathy, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that sounds so hard. I'm sorry. You have to deal with that.

Ann: Right. Well, that's the thing. I think we do, we really do have to have some empathy for it because that that is a lot, and I never thought about that. You have to keep up with TikTok because of the trends and knowing what's like the hot thing so you can actually have conversations about it That never even occurred to me.

So that's something totally new and different. So yeah, I think they're under so much freaking pressure. I think sometimes maybe they don't even realize the pressure that they're under because they're all under the same pressure, but it is horrendous. I think I can't even imagine doing what they have to do.

Um, you know, talking about the, the friendships and, and all of that, I mean, what we talked a little bit about, you know, how the, the, the group texts and the, I guess the bullying behavior and that kind of thing plays into the, the. Friendships. But have you seen any other ways that, that social media or just the, the, um, uh, tech in general plays into friendships in middle school?

Yeah,

Jessica: it, you know, it definitely complicates things a little bit more again, because it's so in middle school, some kids are connecting in this way and some aren't, you know, so that that creates some new dynamics that they have to navigate, you know, depending on what's going on with them and their family.

Are they able to connect online or are they not? Um, so. That's that's tricky for kids navigate, um, and how to navigate these group texts. Well, it's, it's not easy stuff. So I think it, you know, if we can think about this is, you know, everything we have to everything we had to deal with as middle schoolers is all a little more.

Complicated, but I always come back to just some foundational. I call them friendship truths that I share in my book, my first book and with kids. Um, so these truths, I think can help guide kids, even if they're in this much more complex, you know, digital social world. One, you know, friendships have different phases and change over time, so just knowing changes the norm because one of the things that makes, you know, these preteen and middle school years so hard is there's so much change.

And sometimes kids thinks it's there's something wrong with me or what is going on, you know, so that actually change actually is the norm. And there's a lot more of it going on typically in the preteen years. But even throughout the whole course of our lives, we have different Um, and another friendship truth is our, our healthiest friendships

feel safe and accepting. And so keep an eye out for those. But what's happening in the preteen in the early teen years is not a lot of those friendships feel that way. Not a lot of your friendships feel really safe and accepting. safe and accepting. So because, you know, this online world, I use the term friends really loosely.

Like it's, you know, there's a lot of wiggle room in that friendship for, you know, awesome friendships and then not so awesome friendships. What I encourage kids to do is keep an eye out for those ones that are just one step. Above that, they do feel really safe and accepting. And these are the, the ones that you, you probably would go to if you had a problem, or you can feel safe, really sharing certain things about yourself that you might not share with another friend.

So just helping them understand different levels of friendship. And I call those close friends. That's what I call that, you know, those, those few people. And most of us 1 or 2 friends. Three maybe close friends that are those people and then there's this huge swath of, you know, in quote friends where it might not feel that level of safety and acceptance.

And that's normal to, you know, so sometimes it can feel really uncomfortable. Like, well, I thought this was person was my friend and it's, it's much more of an acquaintance sort of relationship there. So just kind of understanding these different levels of friendship, um, knowing, you know, when it might be a better idea not to show all your cards, you know, cause this is a newer friendship and maybe trust hasn't been built yet.

Um, so, you know, that's another truth I share with kids. And also that, you know, everybody's developing friendship skills at a different pace. And so, you know, some kids are really great at a lot of things. Maybe they're really good at healthy communication. They're good at listening. And they're, you know, so they've got empathy.

They've got a lot of empathy. Some kids are not there, but they might be strong in other skills. So we see this mix up in, especially in the middle school years where kids are learning this. And so, of course, it gets messy. Of course, it gets messy and mistakes are so common. Um, so I encourage kids to, to, to just I understand that, but you know, everybody tends to be doing the best they can with the skills they got.

 

And we as parents can help in that regard by knowing that's going to happen and not like labeling kids. Like I, I hate that when some kid that made some mistakes in middle school, probably because they were having some personal struggles, then they get this label that that carries all the way through.

But what I've seen, especially now that I got two in high school now, they're so. They're different people, you know, so let's give them the room to mess up and grow and change from that experience. Um, you know, it doesn't mean that our child has to be best friends with them. That might be a great opportunity to learn how to put a healthy and kind boundary there.

But let's give that person, a chance to grow and change into another person because we all do, you know, thank gosh, I'm not the person I was in middle school, you know, so, so, and sometimes as parents, we can perpetuate this cause we can throw these really heavy labels on kids that are only 11 and 12, you know, and we think of them in that way when now they're 17 and they're actually a really different person.

So, so we can be careful with our kids of allowing kids to make mistake and change and grow just as they will.

So parents talking to their kids about friendships and what they should and shouldn't say How far involved they should get and, you know, how they should, you know, maybe not get in the middle of it. I have seen those questions. A lot of times about, you know, my daughter's friend did this and should I call the mom? Like how far should parents actually get into the middle of this?

Jessica: That's a good question. And I, I recommend, um, Unless it's a situation, we feel like there's actual bullying going on. It's I found it's best not to get involved. And I've made this mistake myself thinking that I could actually help the situation and and often it doesn't. And here's why 1 we're hearing 1 side. We're hearing one side of the story. Um, and so there's a whole other perspective. And then there's a backstory to, you know, so, so, you know, there's, you know, there's a whole other perspective.

And then there's what led to the thing in the, the, the first place you do, which you never know. It could be struggles at home. It could be some neurodiversity. It could be. So what just happened was really challenging for your child has a whole other side that we're not understanding.

So, when we act just from hearing, you know, what our kid is sharing us, we're not at all acting with a full deck of cards. So what I encourage parents to do is all of these are opportunities for us to help our kids navigate big emotions. So, you know, whatever just happened felt really bad and embarrassing or sad or shameful.

And so we can help them navigate that because that's a lifelong skill, right? So, navigating uncomfortable emotions in healthy ways is one of the best gifts that we can give our kids. Right. Um, and then we can all, cause once we've done that, you know, we've heard them, we've let them just vent and we've, you know, sometimes best thing I could say is, Oh my gosh, that sounds so hard. You know, tell me more. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that happened. So just empathy and helping them share, um, helping them find ways to channel that. So if it's anger, what can you do, you know, when you're angry, I find sometimes I just need to go move. I need to go for a run, or if I'm so sad, I just need to go put on some music and, you know, sit quietly or, you know, so just helping them figure out how do we navigate this tough emotion and then maybe, later, if we notice that there is some sort of skill that our kid can benefit from, later, maybe we touch on that. So maybe our child has a hard time speaking up, which is super common. I heard this a lot, especially from young girls, you know, that speaking up doesn't feel safe. And, and that makes sense. I understand. I remember one of the girls in my program, you know, I would teach them a skill I call eye power, how to speak up. And in one of my programs, a girl raises her hand. She's like, but if I said that, they'd mow my head off. She's like, they would mow my head off, which was so true. So, we could teach them this.

Perfect way to speak up and, you know, this is, it's not really the safest relationship emotionally. So, there's a good chance that they're going to speak up and they're going to get their head mowed off. So, teaching your kids, even to speak up it might take years. So, it might start so simply as giving them the language, like, I want you to stop, this needs to stop, walking away. You know, starting so simple, knowing that they might need some baby steps. You know, if the skill that our kid could, grow is learning to speak up. It might be baby steps that start really early. And then by the time maybe they're a junior in high school, they got it down and they know exactly how to put a stop to a situation that's making them really uncomfortable, but that doesn't happen overnight.

So, we can notice in our kids, you know, after we've coached them through this really difficult emotion later, is there a skill that might help them that we can help them maybe practice in this situation or bring some awareness to it first starting to bring some awareness to you know, maybe this would help in this situation and then maybe they're ready to try it out this time. Maybe not. Maybe next time they might want to try that out. But, you know, we start to just notice the skills that we can help our kids develop.

Um, yeah, so that that's what I recommend other than getting in the nitty gritty, because I've never, I've, I've never seen that work out well. I'll just tell you that I've never seen that go well for the parents or the kids and giving them advice. I mean, we, we probably want to stop short of giving them advice on how to handle it other than we just want to work with them on handling their emotions and channeling those emotions for them.

I think that’s GREAT advice. Support them emotionally but stay out of the middle of friend situations. It will not turn out well for you.

And listen, Jessica’s books are just incredible! The Phone Book is extremely interactive and includes real stories, fun facts, and great ways to make kids really think about technology. There’s a chapter on digital footprints where she puts the reader in the role of  a boss hiring someone and they have to decide between 2 great candidates based solely on their social media. This is good stuff for both your kid and you! Of course, I’ll have the links for you in the episode description right where you’re listening. And if you have a child that doesn’t yet have a smart phone, reading this book together and requiring them to do all the exercises…and quiz them on it – that’s a good idea! Whatever you can do to help them be more informed and prepared to navigate their online world.

That’s it for Speaking of Teens today. The link for all of our free parenting guides are in the description where you’re listening. I urge you to check out both the “10 Keys” and “Emotional Awareness Strategies”

You can also come join us in the Speaking of Teens Facebook Group - The link is right there at the very bottom of the show description in your app.

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Speaking of Teens is produced and edited by Steve Coleman; hosted by me, Ann Coleman.

Join me again on Friday for our bonus episode. Until then, take care of yourself.