Why Won’t Anyone Acknowledge Their Teen’s Less-Than-Stellar Behavior?
Ann
Teenage boys are a bit of a paradox. They have no problem memorizing every word of every song in their playlist, they can give you stats back decades on their favorite sports team, They may be a legend in both Fortnight and Minecraft and have year-long Snapchat streaks with at least 10 friends…but they can’t get their nightly homework completed and turned in on time, and asking them to study for a test is tantamount to asking them to walk 300 miles through the desert in 100 degree heat with no water – actually I think they’d rather do that.
What is up with teenage boys and their lack of motivation for all things academic? It’s not even that they do that much complaining about it – it’s just as if they don’t really care. And as their parent – it’s absolutely maddening. We know they can do it – we know they have the intellect and the ability and it’s not like it would even take up that much time, if they’d just do it.
I literally tried every method under the sun to try and get my son to care just the tiniest bit about school – I can’t even tell you how many times over the years I’ve said “if you’d just started instead of arguing about it, you’d be finished by now.” And he does have ADHD (like me) but I know now that even if he hadn’t, I would have likely had the same issues because I hear it ALL THE TIME. How do I motivate my teenage son? Well, stay with me because we’re going to talk about this very thing with Dr. Adam Price, author of He’s Not Lazy.
This is Speaking of Teens, the podcast that helps parents who are struggling to find peace and connection with their teens. My name is Ann Coleman; I’m an attorney turned parent educator and a mom who has been there - and I’m on a mission to help you build a stronger relationship and decrease the conflict with your kid so you can help them grow into the young adult they’re meant to be.
Dr. Adam Price is a licensed psychologist, an expert in ADHD and has been working with kids, teens, and families for over 20 years. He also wrote the wildly popular book He’s Not Lazy: Empowering Your Son To Believe In Himself and the workbook of the same name for teens and parents.
Dr. Price obviously loves what he does because when he’s not seeing patients he’s busy speaking to groups of parents and educators all over the country or appearing on television shows or podcasts. You can tell by listening to him that he is passionate about helping his patients and about explaining these issues to empower us as parents. I invited Dr. Price to be on the show because I know how serious this issue of motivation is for parents. We worry about it a lot.
So, I started out by asking Dr. Price why it is that more parents seem to be worried about their boys’ lack of motivation than their girls. Why does this seem to be more of a male affliction?
Adam Price, Ph.D.
You know, and that's a good question. And there's a lot of concern about boys, you know, there's a lot of concern about boys not graduating from high school as in the same rates as girls are getting into college or staying in college. And, you know, I always, I mean, I think that those statistics are true, but I think girls have plenty of issues that they have to face growing up. And the book, you know, could have been written for girls too because girls do have motivation problems, but I wanted to focus specifically on boys because that's who I primarily see in my practice. I think that, though, to pinpoint it, I think girls mature at a different rate than boys, and they tend to be more mature. And boys catch up, but especially in the early grades. You know, girls mature at a rate and in an order that is better suited for the early grades. They're more verbal.
They can sit still more, they wanna please adults. Boys get satisfied by what they can do, how far they can throw a football or how much they can crack up at class. Girls get satisfied by who they know, by the social network. And that includes wanting to, you know, make relationships with teachers. So I think at the get-go, girls have an advantage. And for some boys, they just get turned off to school at an early age and it's a struggle. So I think there's a few reasons, but I think maturity is a big one.
Ann
Could it be that schools aren’t teaching to boys’ strengths the way they are to girls? Is that an issue?
Adam Price, Ph.D.
I'm not a proponent of that theory. I mean, I think that there are great same-sex schools, private schools, parochial schools, and I think that that's a fine way to educate kids, but I don't think it's the only way. And there's some people that report that boys have to be taught differently than girls. I just don't see it. I actually think the opposite. I think girls tend to have a calming effect on boys, and they tend to be more attentive in the classroom.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
So I think that that's, co-ed education I think is what I would favor. But again, I know some wonderful all boys schools. The other thing is that boys are young men, right? Teenagers are not the same thing as adults, they're different. But boys and men are trained not to ask for help, to be able to handle everything, to be able to feel always in control, to be stoic. So I think that also challenges boys in school because they're less likely to go for help and they don't get status by getting high grades. They don't get status by being a straight A student. They get status, as I said before, by being able to do things.
Yes – I can totally see that. And I know parents always feel like they're the only ones going through this, that their kid is the only one who has no motivation and so tell people I mean percentage wise just taking a random guess how many boys in high school do you think are totally gung ho on studying every day and doing their homework and being organized and making sure they make straight A's - what percentage of boys are they?
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Oh, I've never seen any research, but I would estimate it's under 10%. Um, it's definitely in a minority. Yeah.
Ann
There you go. Okay, well that's the thing I think parents need to realize - that they're not the only ones - that their boys are not the only ones - and if they're not the only ones, there's a reason for this.
So you talk about in your book, you call them the opt-outs, and I love that because actually I believe what you said could easily apply for girls too. I believe it’s so true because it took me years of looking back to try to figure out why I didn't try harder in school because I know I could have done well looking back. I know now I could have made straight A's, but I just did not care. And the, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought, you know what, I think I did care, but I was afraid because if you try too hard and then you don't do well, then you feel like you really are stupid. You know, there's something really wrong with you. What explains this phenomenon that boys and girls kind of feel this, this weirdness about if I try too hard, what happens?
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, there's so much in that question, Ann, and I think I'll answer the first part, but then I wanna add something. I think that it's often true that underneath is a fear of success. And so it's much easier to not try and not fail than to try and fail. Because if you don't try, you can just say, I didn't try. If I tried, I might've succeeded. And I think underneath.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
a lot of boys are worried about failing. And again, they don't ask for help. Some of the things I said before, create a wall between them and trying to take that step. And then what happens is, which I know we'll get into, but a battle of wills develops between a parent and a child, where I call it the paradoxical response, because what happens is the parent underneath the child is ambivalent about doing well in school. Ambivalence means you have two sets of feelings. I want to do better and I'm afraid to do better. I want to try and I want to play video games. Whatever the two are, they conflict with each other. And so usually when people are ambivalent, it's within them. And so they, you know, they battle it out. They figure it out and eventually they make a decision. But what happens in this situation is that the part of the equation that I do better in school, you can do better in school part, the parents assume that part emotionally. And so the kids are free to, oh, I don't care about school. It's kind of like, you know, before a couple is about to get pregnant, usually, you know, the one parent says, the husband's like, I'm not ready. And so then as long as he's not ready, the wife is free to, you know, imagine is it gonna be a boy or a girl, what color am I gonna paint the nursery? But it's cause she's not, she knows it's not gonna happen.
But as soon as she, you know, the husband says, I think I'm ready. She's like, oh wait, don't we want to take that trip and you know, wait a minute. And eventually they come to it. What happens in this situation is the parent takes on one side, the student takes on the other side, the child, but they don't go back and forth. And so then, and I was just explaining this to a parent earlier today, the parent becomes the target. So it's not about, oh gee, I'm ambivalent. I don't know if I can do it in school. What should I do? you're a jerk, you're making me do all this stuff, you know, you're the bad guy. And then the kid gets let off the hook. And I think we'll get back to that. But the other thing I just wanna throw in, because I think it's so important, you don't have to get straight A's in high school. You know, you said, why didn't I get straight A's? And there's so much pressure, there's this belief out there that you have to get straight A's in order to do well. And I know it's competitive. And I know that, you know, getting into college is harder than it used to be. Nonetheless, development hasn't sped up, you know, so kids still develop at the same rate and they will get there. They will get to be mature adults but they may not be there in 10th or even 11th grade.
Ann
Yeah, well, that's what the parents, you know, I'm sure you’re a parent, you feel this urgency no matter. I mean, you feel like, yes, they don't have to make straight A's, but if I don't jump in here, they may make straight F's because they're doing nothing. So I feel like I have to put the pressure on. I have to at least, remind them of their homework every day and do all these things. And I think that it's the fear. We have so much fear about it. We want them to be successful. And I think you talk about this a little bit too, is that our need for them to be successful does not equal their inner motivation to do whatever they want to do. I mean, we're coming at it from two different angles. So the success thing that we're so stuck on, you know, I say all the time that there's junior college. Everybody's not cut out to go to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, whatever. But I think it's so pressure filled for parents. There's so much peer pressure with parents, with everybody saying, oh, where's your kid going? And where did they get into school? And how did they do on the SAT? I mean, everybody knows what everybody made on the SATs these days. Nobody knew what I made on the ACT back then. And I don't even think my parents knew what I made. So, you know, it's just, it feels like the pressure is coming from maybe the top down or from, you know, the adult level and we're pushing it down to the kids. I mean, what do you see in your practice with the parents?
Adam Price, Ph.D.
I was too embarrassed to tell people.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, that's what I see exactly. And that's what I try to help parents to understand because the more that a parent will push in the way that you're describing, you know, so accurately, the more oppositional the student will become, the more oppositional and defiant. And it's just what I was describing before. It's your fault. I'm not listening to you. You're always yelling at me. The child will become. So I do have an idea about how parents should proceed because I don't think just letting kids off and letting them do whatever they want is gonna be helpful. That's sort of letting them fail completely. That's not our job as parents. So I start with a metaphor, which is it's a child's train, they're the train, they're pulling the train on the tracks. They're moving the train. Their energy, their motivation, their desire, their ambition, which is there, even though parents don't always see it. Parents' job is to keep them on the track.
It's not to make the train move faster. It's not to make the train go to Philadelphia rather than New York. It's to keep them on the track. And so in order to do that, parents have to set certain limits, but they can't micromanage. You know, a parent was talking to me just this morning, I'm seeing her son and he's a new patient and she's a very ambitious, and has a lot of good ambitions for her kids and, but puts a lot of pressure on this kid who's just not ready. He's just not mature enough.
And so she said, you know, how do I get him motivated? You know, that's what we're trying to do, get him motivated. I said, no, that's not what you're trying to do. That's not where motivation comes from. You know, if you try to get him motivated, you're just going to beat it out of him. He has to get motivated. And by the way, it's not so easy to feel motivated in high school. I mean, we can talk more about that, but, you know, it's not the most exciting place to be usually. So so what I suggest is that parents.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
set a standard for what their kids should do in school. That's the rails, keeping them on the track. That may be all Bs. I don't believe that parents should insist kids get A's. I think kids should be able to decide that for themselves. But, and a lot of parents disagree with me by the way. But I think that, set a standard, talk to the teenager, talk to your son, talk to your daughter about it. Here's what we want you to do. We expect you to get all Bs.
And there may be some back and forth like just mom, you know how you're doing math. I really love her. So maybe math, you don't get a B maybe you get a C, you know, but, but basically that's the plan and we're not going to, we're not going to check on you every day. We're not going to go on online, you know, reporting and see if you turn it in your homework. We're not going to go into your room and pretend to, you know, give you a snack when we're really seeing if you're doing your work. What we are going to do is we're going to be in touch in about four weeks.
And if you don't, you know, with your teachers, we're not gonna leave it a whole semester. And if you don't have all Bs, then we're gonna decide that you have probably too much time on your hands, you know, that you're doing something else with. And so we need to take something away so that you have more time to do your schoolwork. And it'll probably be something that you like to do. Probably, you know, and it depends on the kid. It could be an extracurricular. I don't think parents should withhold sports or social activities from a kid who's not social. But if the kid's comfortable and confident, maybe it's seeing their friends on the weekend, whatever it is. And then after that, we'll do it another four weeks and we'll see how you're doing. So that avoids the power struggle. It puts the conflict in the kid's lap. If they don't pull up their grades in four weeks, it's okay because it means they're struggling with it. We always tell kids, we always hear, you gotta let kids fail. That's what letting kids fail looks like.
Ann
And that's so freaking hard. I mean, you know, as a parent, that the whole idea and I remember, Lord, I had teachers tell me this over and over and over again in elementary school with my son when we first found out that he had ADHD and there he was in a private Episcopal school and that we were conferencing constantly. And there was, you know, constantly push back from teachers.
And I remember them saying, you've got to just let him fail. And I'm like, what parent lets their kid fail? That would be a failure on me. Why would I let him fail? But nobody explains, you know, why you let them fail. There's more to it than that. You know, learning from their mistakes, that kind of thing. But, you know, I think it's a lot easier for us as parents to let them fail if we're going to do it in elementary school, in middle school. The problem is I think we get so worked up about college when they're you know ninth grade up that we can't see stepping back for four weeks because oh my god they could do a lot of damage you know to their GPA in four weeks even. But so how do we get parents across this threshold of understanding that failure at this age in high school is not as bad as failure in college or failure out in the real world. How do we explain that?
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, shameless plug, read my book because I talk about it in the book in detail. But I don't say to parents, you should let your kids fail. I say to parents, you've got to give them some space to figure it out on their own. And it won't be a linear process. It won't be, okay, you've given me this space and now I'm gonna run with the ball. It can be messy, but you have to give them the space to do that, otherwise they'll never be able to. And I...
Adam Price, Ph.D.
I can't tell you, Ann I always have a kid in my practice who has failed out of college. And the drill is usually, I have a young man now who's about to go back. The drill is usually bomb one semester, are on probation the next semester. And if you don't get a 2.0, which is a low bar, then you're asked to leave. And the school is always take the kids back. Some are a little bit more straightforward than others. But...
But during that year, the kids are like, oh God, this is the worst thing in the world. And then they do, they'll get a job, they'll go to community college, they'll volunteer, they'll go on a trip, whatever they do. They end up really needing that year. They were not ready to go to college. And every one of the kids I've worked with has gone on to college and graduated. And I'm not saying this because I'm a great therapist. I'm such a great therapist. I'm saying because they needed the year and they needed to do something productive. So I think that it's the same thing I said before, every kid develops at a different rate. And we have to we have no choice. We have to give them the space to do that. One of the things that is, you know, crucial to doing well in school is delayed gratification. You know, you do this for a later reward. And some kids struggle with that more than other kids. So, you know, it's not easy. You know, there's a famous marshmallow test. If your listeners don't know it, we're a psychologist years ago.
Just Google it, you see the funniest videos, but had these little toddlers and he gave them a marshmallow and he said, if you don't eat this, when I come back in 10 minutes, I'll give you two. And you see one kid under the table and another kid licking the marshmallow. And he followed these kids, they happen to be in his child's nursery school class, he followed them through high school and the ones that didn't eat the second, you didn't eat the marshmallow and waited for the second one, they actually did better in school and college because they could delay gratification.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
So these things kids catch up, but we just have to give them the time and it is really hard the problem is By the time someone has come to see me or has picked up my book. They're already in a power struggle they're already in battle of will and whatever they think they're gonna do to try to push the kid harder is gonna make it worse So they don't you know, they don't have a choice but the choice isn't
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Terrible choice because again, it's just about nature. It's just about how kids develop and what they need to be able to figure this stuff
Adam Price, Ph.D.
I actually wrote a workbook for parents and teens, a kind of compendium called, He's Not Lazy, a guide to great grades and a great life. And there's a chapter on values in it where it helps kids to develop and determine their own values and to kind of sort through what's really important to me. And it's really interesting. Kids love to do this, teenagers love to do this.
But I think that values, parents forget that their values are being disseminated, you know? And the kids are watching, they are observing. There was a study done about getting kids to read years ago and it was really interesting because the good readers, the kids that picked up books weren't now, this is probably before video games, so we're in a whole other stratosphere, but the kids who picked up books were not the kids necessarily whose parents read to them, they were the parents who read books and they saw them read the books. And so they modeled that behavior. So I think that, you know, if you're valuing education in your family, and most families do, your kids are absorbing that. It doesn't mean that they're not listening or they don't care. They do care. They come, you know, I'm always amazed because, you know, they'll do it, a teenager and a parent will come in, a teenager will have slump shoulders. You know, when I first meet them, they're like rolling their eyes as the parent tells me how terrible they are, or what they want to improve, or whatever it is. And they don't want to do well in school. And then as soon as the parent leaves, and the kid sits up and he starts talking. And I say, so do you want to do well in school? Always yes. You know, always yes. That doesn't mean they know how to. That doesn't mean it's that simple. But the kids will say they don't care usually care.
Ann
Well, I mean, that's the thing. I think by the time that we have been on top of them for so long about doing so well, they don't want to just do it because they think they're pleasing us because they really don't want to please us by that point. They're pissed off at us and they don't want to go, okay, I'll do it for you. So by that point, they're like, well, I’m by God not going to do well because I don't want to make them happy.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
I'll tell you or I'll tell your listeners that the purpose of adolescence is to separate, it's to become independent. So little kids do want to do well for their parents and their teachers. That's the motivation. But by the time they get to high school, it has to come internally. And we don't want it to come, as you said, so eloquently externally, because they're about becoming who they are. Now that is not a pretty process, right? They think you're the most, you know, idiotic person on the face of the earth.
Mark Twain said I couldn't believe how much smarter my father got between the time I was 15 and 20 or whatever.
Ann
It’s so true! Well, I read something you wrote that I thought was pretty brilliant – it goes to this internal versus external motivation – hang on – let me find it here - you were talking about making this all about your kid’s values and what they want for themselves. I jotted it down – here it is – You said parents should be telling their kids, “It doesn't matter what I think about your grades. It matters what you think of them.” You were talking about, helping them learn to let their pride and their values lead the way rather than the parent’s view of what’s “successful”.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Yes, yes. Oh, I see where you're going. Yeah. Well, yeah, so, um,
Adam Price, Ph.D.
That's about getting out of that paradoxical response. That's about saying, I'm not gonna own your success. I'm not gonna take responsibility for your success. You have to, they're your grades. So you figure that out. So that really prevents kids from fighting and saying, no, it's all your fault. As I was saying before, it's just a simple concept. So it's so much more difficult to put into action. But it's, you know, and then the kid may say, well, I don't care about my grades. Don't believe that for a second. That, you know, they're just saving face. They do.
And so ultimately, the value that I want kids to come away with is not, this is what you need to do to be successful, but this is what you need to do to be proud of yourself. Because if you do something that you're proud of yourself about, you have control over it. It's determined by your values, your capabilities, holding yourself accountable. That was the equation. Accountability plus capability equals pride rather than it equals success. Because once you feel proud, you're gonna be successful. You're gonna be doing good work. You'll just be more motivated.
Ann
Right. So that’s the key – to somehow help them see this is about them and their values and making themselves proud rather than pleasing us because that just sets up this whole power struggle.
So when we try all these tactics like giving rewards for grades or giving punishments for bad grades or, all of these things that we all try, at some point, I mean, God, we tried bribery, we were pleading. We did everything we could but none of that will work in the long run. It ALL creates power struggles - because they don't want to do it because we want them to do it. I mean, it's just that paradox.
So how, if we, let's say we've got a kid in ninth, 10th, 11th grade, and we're still struggling with this, is it… even viable to sit down with your kid and say, look, I just realized I've really screwed up.
I've been pushing you and pushing you and pushing you and nagging you and nagging you and trying to give you rewards and trying to do all these things. I've just read this book called, He's Not Lazy, and it's brilliant. And I've realized that I've been doing the wrong thing. So we're gonna back off and we're gonna let you decide what you need to do to make yourself proud and decide what you value out of life or out of school or whatever, we're going to back off. Could that backfire where the kid goes, oh yay, I'm just not going to do anything now?
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, as long as you believe, because that's a beautiful thing to say to a kid, except you have to keep in the equation, you still have to get Bs, and if you don't, there'll be a consequence. Because if you take that away, yeah, then you're just saying you do whatever you want. And I don't believe in that at all. That will just make a kid flounder. I usually tell kids, this young man I'm telling you about, you know, I called his mom because I said, you know, to him last week, I'll make a deal with you. I'll call your mom and I'll ask her to not expect you to get A's in all your classes." And he was like, Dr. Price, that would be so great, thank you. We fight about it all the time. And I'm just so pressured and fed up. And I said, great. And then I will tell your mom that if you get anything less than a B after four weeks, she's gonna take away something. He's like, you're not gonna do that, are you? But that's the deal, right? That's part of the deal. Yeah.
Ann
Yeah. So, I mean, and you think that's, it's reasonable then to just sit down with them and say, look, what do you think you can make? I mean, what if you have a kid though, who can't make above a C or something like that? I mean, how do we know expectation wise with these kids, you know, especially if they have learning issues and ADHD and that kind of thing how do we even know what they're capable of? You know, how?
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, and that's a really good question. And so, first of all, if you're struggling in the kid's junior year and they've been struggling, you should consider, I mean, hopefully you've considered it before it's gotten picked up by the school, is there a learning disability? Does the kid need to be tested? Because if that's the case, then there are things to put in place to support that kid. They can still get Bs and As, but there's things to be put in place.
If they have ADD, you know, actually an ADHD actually this book is not written particularly for kids who have ADHD but it is written I mean for parents of kids but it is written because for the parents of kids of ADHD because I didn't see anything written about motivation and that is one of the things that you know ADHD effects and Medication doesn't help. So that's why I really that's one of the reasons I wanted to write about motivation. But the thing about ADHD is, and it just goes back to what I was saying, if you have ADHD, as do I, by the way, you have to develop strategies so that you can get through life. You have to figure them out. And they have to work for you. I have a friend, when we were in college, she said, you were always so organized in college. What do you mean you have ADHD? I said, that was my strategy. I carried everything I could possibly need in my backpack so that I would never lose it.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
When my wife asked me to do something around the house, I do it immediately and she's like, you don't have to do it right now. I said, you know me, if I don't do it right now, I will forget about it in five minutes and it will never get done. So part of it is helping kids to develop those strategies by trial and error and giving them the space to do it. So I don't think it should ever be used as an excuse. Life is harder when you have ADHD, but it's not impossible.
Ann
Did your parents help you with your strategies or did you figure them out all on your own? I'm just curious.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, back then I was just told I talked too much to my neighbors. There was no diagnosis of ADHD. So I was left to figure them out on my own. And I was a pretty motivated student. So I figured it out. But I certainly got B's when I could have gotten A's, absolutely. Or I'd like to tell myself that.
Ann
Right, right. Well….. yeah, me too. Well, and because it's funny, because I'm super duper organized myself. And I mean, they called me the slave driver in law school. Everybody wanted to study with me because I had to study harder and longer. I didn't know why. I didn't know I had ADHD. So I didn't know why, but I always knew there was like the ceiling that I felt like I could not push through.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
But if you don't mind my asking, how old were you when you went to law school?
Ann
27 when I started.
Adam Price
27, okay. And I am pretty sure you did well in law school, right? You told me that you got Bs in high school, you couldn't get As, but somehow by the age of 27, you were able to be a really good law student, right? That's my point.
Ann
Right. Well, I mean, I actually did get mostly As my second 2 years of high school because I wanted to try out for cheerleader – internal motivation – and when I got out of high school, I wanted to do even better because honestly, I think the environment has so much to do with it. You alluded to it earlier. High school is boring as hell. It's horrible. It stinks. The kids know they're not going to need half of the stuff that they're learning.
They're going to need the skills that they're learning in those classes, but they know that this is never even gonna come up in trivial pursuit and certainly not in everyday life, and it bores the crap out of them. So I get that they're not motivated.
I think it changes when you go to college, even junior college. I just went to junior college for two years. And in junior college, everybody wanted to be there. Everybody was there because...they wanted to be there. They weren't being forced to be there and it's a different learning environment. And I think it's more independent and you're more excited about it. And I think, you know, a lot of kids, that difference in environment makes a difference to them. So it did to me. So, I mean, you know, I think as parents, we've got to stop looking into the future and predicting, you know, what's gonna happen because we all see our kids, especially boys lying around playing video games, eating and you know making a mess in their room and we think oh my god they're never going to amount to anything they're gonna who's gonna ever want to marry somebody that just lies around and plays video games or who's gonna want to be their roommate or anything else.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Right, exactly, exactly. Yeah, and you know what? They're gonna walk down the aisle, right? Yeah, yeah, whoever. I think that I have a challenge for your parents, the listeners. This week, take out a notebook or a stack of paper. You'll need a large stack of notes. And write down everything you do for your kid that week. Everything.
And then at the end of the week, go through the list and cross off everything that you think that he can do for himself. And then circle the things that you think he might need some help with. And then you'll be left with a list of things that you need to do for him. And then put that into action. The next week, your kid will not know what hit him. And you can decide whether he can do his own laundry or not. You know, I mean, it's your choice where you want to put that because there'll be some things that you just do, but there'll be some things that you don't, you know he can do himself and then you just have to.
Ann
Yeah, well, that that's the challenge is just being able to take that little step back or that big step back for me, it was a huge step back to take that step back and see what happens because so many of us don't have enough patience or resilience or whatever it is to get through those days or weeks or however long it takes.
And, you know, part of that, I think this dang technology that we have available with Google Classroom and all the things that we feel like we have to keep up with – we’re either told we have to do it by schools, teachers, or we just feel like it’s there for us to check up on our kid and to make sure that they're doing what they're supposed be doing. Should we be doing that as much as we all do?
Adam Price, Ph.D.
It's a great tool, just not every day, not every week even. And you have to decide how bad a shape your kids in and how much intervention they need, but do less. So that's why I say four weeks. Teachers don't, kids will tell me though that teachers don't always keep up with it. And then they probably don't, it's a lot of work to keep up with that. So they probably, why would we want a teacher to stay after school every day for an hour to do that? They catch up. Sit down and put it all in at some point. So there's some truth to it not being accurate every day.
Ann
Right. Oh, I remember hearing that. That's right. I forgot about that. That they don't do it. It's not caught up, mom. I have done that. Yeah, I remember hearing that now.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, right, but then it's like, but when you're looking back a month, then you're like, okay, that was this week, but what about three weeks ago? Why isn't that one done?
Ann
Well, or do you think these kids who seem to lack motivation and aren’t doing what they’re supposed to be – are they stressed out? I mean we know the kids taking all AP classes and doing all the community services and doing whatever they can to build that college resume – studies show how stressed they are – but what about our much lesser motivated kids?
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, that leads to a really good point. So I'm glad that you asked that question. Yeah, these kids are stressed out, but they have learned that avoidance is the easiest way to get rid of anxiety.
You know, when we treat, as psychologists, when we treat people with anxiety disorders, let's say phobias, you know, we do exposures. Let's expose you to whatever you're afraid of a little bit at a time until you can tolerate it. And it's hard because when you have a phobia, what you do is you make sure that you avoid it as much as possible. I'm claustrophobic. But I don't have very often the need to go into a cave, so it really doesn't affect my life. I don't like elevators. I get help with walking upstairs, but there are other phobias to do. So what teenage boys are really good at is avoidance. Because as soon as you turn off the computer or close the paper you're working on and turn on a video game, there's no more anxiety. And so I think that they do have stress. It's just that, and so this is something else that I think is really important because...
Carol Dweck developed a theory that's become very popular about fixed and growth mindset. That people that are born, people that think they can do better in life, think they can get smarter, actually do better. And people that kids that think they can't do it, they can't get smarter, they can't become a better athlete. They don't. And it's a matter of what you think. But the reason behind it has to do with anxiety. The reason is because kids who think they can figure something out, think that they're smart enough that they can do well. When they come across something that they're not good at, they deal with the anxiety. They study harder, they learn a new skill, they practice. They're anxious about it, they have self-doubt, but they don't just shut down and then they get through it. The kids who think I can't do it, or if you have to work, it means you're not good at something and it comes easily to everybody else, when they come up to that obstacle, you know they flip on the Xbox. And then it becomes unfortunately a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Ann
Yes - is that related to the idea that it’s better for parents to tell kids they should be proud of themselves for working so hard – sort of praising the effort rather than the outcome (oh you’re so smart – you made an A)
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Yeah, and the reason is because how hard they work is in their control. And how smart they are is not in their control. And how hard they work is something tangible and that's what's gonna give them success, not how smart they are. And I have seen kids who are in high school who say, I was told I was smart for so long, where are the A's? And I have to break the news that you just not awarded them because- think you're smart, you know you gotta do the work. Yeah.
Ann (44:34.633)
Yeah. Well, I think that happens to a lot of these kids too, who are very, who make really good grades in high school. And then they get into a really good college. They go off to college and it's like everybody there also did really well in high school at the top of their class. And they're like, Oh crap, I'm, I'm not smarter than everyone here. We're all just the same. Yeah.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Right. There's a fascinating study that you may have heard about kids getting into college and what these researchers did, and I don't recall their names, but I don't know, they had amazing data because they wanted to see if kids who went to Ivy League schools and top-tier schools were more successful in life than kids that went to, you know, state schools, the University of Alabama, Rutgers, wherever. And so they measured it by how much they made because that's an easy thing to measure, 10 years out of school. And the kids that went to the better schools made more money. But they were like, is it that simple? So then they look back at their data, and they were interested to know if kids who they didn't even have to apply to the top tier schools, all they had to do is think that they could get into the top tier schools. They might have applied to University of Alabama because it was more affordable, you know, great.
But they thought, you know what, I got good enough grades, I could have gotten into Yale. Those kids did just as well ten years out of college in terms of how much money they made. And the variable was not the name of the bumper sticker on the parent's car, the variable was how hard they worked. And I tell kids this all the time.
Ann
Wow, that’s fascinating - it is so much about mindset. And that's one way I think parents can make a real difference - by explaining how the brain is changing during adolescence and that during this developmental period, their brain is really, so malleable - their brain is so plastic that they can actually learn to do things that they really weren't that good at before.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Yeah, you know your neurodevelopment, absolutely. I break it down in a simpler terms. I say to parents and to teens, you've probably already read the best book that's ever been written on motivation. You probably read it more than once. It's called The Little Engine. And in that book, The Little Engine, who actually is a girl, not a boy, tells herself, I think I can, I think I can, which is the mantra of someone who has growth, a growth mindset. I haven't, I don't know how to do that yet.
Ann
Yeah, well, I think more kids would have that growth mindset if they realized the neurobiology, if they really knew that they could, you know, increase their intelligence or, you know, learn new things during, adolescence - and as I tell parents, I mean, the bad side of that is that yes, that brain is plastic for the bad things that they learn too. And that's why addictions are, you know, so much easier and that kind of thing. But if they just realized that, you know, that just because you were bad in math in fourth grade or whatever does not mean that you can't get better at it now. You know, it's attainable.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, that hasn't happened to me. I'm still bad at it. You know, there was another study. I should get the citations of all these studies, I quote, but there was a study done at the University of London. And I tell kids about this study also because the researchers wanted to know if the brain actually changes, if you do get smarter. And so it was a fascinating design. So, they looked at people that were, I don't know if you've ever been to London.
You know, you don't just get into a cab like you do where I live in New York City and just, you know, say, take me to Times Square. You say, will you take me to Trafalgar Square? Will you take me here? And so the cabbies have to learn, they have to pass this test, which is really, really challenging. And they have to learn all of the main streets and all of the arteries that feed into the main streets and where all the pubs are and where all the hospitals are. They have to memorize all this stuff. And I was visiting a friend in London and we were outside his house, you know, they have all these beautiful parks, these squares around houses were built. And there's a guy on a moped and then there's another guy turned around behind him and they're just circling around. And my friend who was an investment banker said, you know, he's learning how to become a cabbie and I wanna do that. I'm so sick of investment banking. So I wanna do that. So what they did was these researchers, they compared people they controlled for all the demographics, and they compared the brains through, it's like a movie of the brain, it's an fMRI. So they compared the CABs who passed the test with the CABs who didn't. And what they found was the part of the brain that the hippocampus stores visual memory actually had gotten bigger in the in the in the cabbies who's who memorized all the information so you really can get smarter my friend who was in his 50s decided he couldn't he couldn't do that so he bought a boat he couldn't pass the test so he bought a boat.
Ann
He could have passed the test. I guarantee if I can learn everything that I've learned, I know he could pass the test.
That's the thing. I mean, I think it has to do with wanting to do it because these guys wanted to be a cabbie. They wanted it probably more than maybe the guys who didn't pass the test because if you want something, I mean, that's motivation in and of itself, that's intrinsic motivation.
Wanting it makes you want to study harder. I mean I study more now that I did in law school because it's even more interesting to me. And I think it's so sad that high school isn't more interesting. It is so sad that it can't be made more interesting or fun for some of the kids who do struggle with the boredom. And I think that's a particular problem for kids with ADHD.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Yeah, yeah, kids with ADHD, they equate boredom with death. You know, we can be, other people who don't have ADHD can be bored, but they can kind of tolerate it. It is harder. Their brains are craving more stimulation. When they're...
Adam Price, Ph.D.
The thing about ADHD too that I think you may have already read and know or you'd be interested to learn is that kids with ADHD, their brain functioning is inconsistent. And they're actually a different kind of image of the brain, a PET scan that shows where there's activity through color in the brain. And someone who doesn't have ADHD, they'll be more consistently turned on. They'll be more colors.
When they're doing a certain activity. Someone who does have ADHD, one day it'll be turned on, one day it'll be turned off. And this is what I, you know, I so vividly remember this and I was talking to a teacher of doing an observation and she held up little Jimmy's work and in one hand was the perfect paper he turned in yesterday and then the other hand was the messy paper he turned in on Monday. And she said, so you see he can do it. I said, yeah, he can do it. He just doesn't have control over when he can do it well. And this was a little this was a child. So that is also part of the struggle, yeah.
Ann
That is such a good point because, for my son, I mean, there would be things he could do really, really well on certain days. And so I think it's very confusing for a parent to see this because we see these kids, you know they can do well and then we expect them to do that every single time and we don't understand that inconsistency is just part of it and I mean I would imagine that inconsistency at some level is part of it for all kids but maybe worse for kids with ADHD.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, here's the thing, and by the way, that fact leads to a strategy that someone has to figure out. When you're in the mood to clean your room, clean your room as fast and quick as you can, because tomorrow you're not gonna want to. But the other thing that I think is really critical, and I'm glad we're talking about this, for parents of kids with ADHD to understand, is that, and this is gonna sound weird, but kids with ADHD are 20% less mature than their peers.
Now, I don't know how you measure that. That came from Russell Barkley, who wrote all the first books and is considered the father of ADHD. Brilliant, brilliant guy. And so that's what I heard him say that in a talk he was giving. And then I thought about it and I was like, you know, I was thinking about my patients, that's really true. 20% less mature look, catch up. Problem is, if you have ADHD and you have executive functioning issues and problems with planning and memory and all that stuff you need to be 20% more mature than your peers, right? To figure it out. So if that's the case, then I don't know if this adds up, but it's almost like these kids are 40% less likely to develop the strategies that to you as a grown adult are so obvious. I'm gonna be embarrassed if I tell you how long it took me to develop a strategy of not losing my keys, putting them in the same place every night. Yeah, I was a grown man.
Ann
Oh I totally get it! And this is so important for parents to realize. I remember when my son’s psychiatrist told us, you know, he's probably 2 or 3 years behind his peers in maturity - and no one had ever told us that - and he was like 16 or 17 by then.
Ann
You really have to consider that, because executive functions, I mean, for just adolescents in general, is slow to develop. But gosh, you add on ADHD and you've really got kids very far behind. And the maturity level, I think it goes all the way across to social skills and that kind of thing too. So you have kids kind of floundering socially even, you know, with relationships and that kind of thing. So we've got to cut those kids slack for sure.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Well, yeah, and that's a thing too. I mean, it's just like perfectionism. It doesn't mean that they're immature across the board. Some kids are, but it doesn't mean they're goofy and silly and still making bathroom jokes when they're 15. Some kids are, but there's a certain kind of maturity that they lack. And that's the other thing that's the fascinating thing about adolescents is that they don't develop evenly. So one day you're having this conversation with them it sounds like they've mastered existential philosophy. You know, and the next day they're screaming and yelling at you like a kid because you won't let them drive the car to visit their friend in the next state over.
Ann
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have as parents, we have to understand that this is not an evenly developed process. It is not a linear trajectory - that we have to see that our kids are going to back up. They're going to go forward. They're going to like you said be brilliant or sound like, you know, 35 year olds one day and maybe like two year olds the next two year olds probably more so than the 35 year olds, but you know, we'll get there eventually. That's the good thing because mine's 22 now and he can cook rack of lamb and wash his own clothes.
Adam Price, Ph.D.
Wow, see, there you go. That's what I mean by walking down the aisle. That's exactly what I mean, yeah. Yeah.
Ann
Yep – and I often ask parents, “Have you changed at all since you were in high school?” I think we have to stop and think about that now and then and remind ourselves that this isn’t forever.
Well, Dr. Price, listen, I really appreciate you writing He’s Not Lazy and for taking the time to be here today and to help us understand this whole issue of adolescent motivation – it’s been extremely enlightening.
Dr. Price
I really wanna thank you for putting this podcast out there because it's so helpful to so many parents. And parents need support. They need the kind of help that you're offering them. So I think that's really important. I appreciate it's a privilege to be on the program. And I wanna remind parents of this as a parting thought. Parenting is not a skill, it's a relationship. And if you trust the relationship, then everything's gonna work.
Ann
Absolutely. Thank you so much for that. I so appreciate it. Thank you, Dr. Price.
I want to wrap it up here today by reiterating a couple of the overarching ideas Dr. Price talked about
First, is your kid’s ambivalence. The overwhelming majority of teenage boys are just like yours – deep down they really want to do well, but for many, they’re afraid to try and then fail. If they’re going to fail anyway, they’d rather be able to say they just didn’t try. That’s a real fear for our kids – they’re stressed out and anxious and they have a fixed mindset about how well they’re able to do. Mindset is an enormous part of this.
And as Dr. Price explains it, having these contradictory feelings about school at the same time – they would normally go back in forth in their own head to decide – do I want to do well or would I rather just not try.
But instead of allowing them to have that time to go back and forth and eventually decide for themselves through trial and error, natural consequences, we jump in at the first sign of “I’d rather not try” and say oh no you don’t.”
So, instead of allowing them to have this ambivalence about school, and fight it out within themselves, we take the side of “no, you want to do well” – so instead of going back and forth in their own head, they’re arguing with us. We haven’t given them the time and space to decide for themselves – to find that inner motivation. And the more we argue our side, the more they dig their heels in because by now, they’re really not in the mood to please us (even though, part of them still really wants to do well)
Dr. Price says they’re driving the engine and our role is to simply be the rails and keep them on the track - to set the broader parameters, the expectations and even the consequences - then take a step back and come back later to see how it went – readjust if necessary. Micromanagement is the enemy here (as in ALL things with teens)
Also remember that high school is not the most motivating environment – it just isn’t. And you can’t force someone else to be motivated or change their level of motivation. The external controls we try (like rewards and punishments) will not work in the long term – we’re setting them up for failure. This is all about your kid’s individual development and how they have to determine their level of motivation themselves and their maturity level cannot be forced or manipulated.
For the second week in a row I’m going to say, step back – I know it’s hard – I know you worry, but you have to admit, what you’re doing right now is not good for anyone…and I know you want the best for your kid, even if that means being extremely uncomfortable yourself. You can do this. As Dr. Price said, trust the relationship – your relationship is key – nurture that and the other bits tend to fall into place.
You can find Dr. Adam Price at hesnotlazy.com, where you can also buy his book and workbook of the same name and you can also find him at either his office in Chatham NJ or Manhattan if you’re in the area. I’ll have links for everything, including his blog on Psychology Today in the show notes.
That’s it for Speaking of Teens today. I really appreciate you being here with me – if you’re new, I hope you’ll be back. Please share the show with someone who might need to hear it – we want to share the love and the important messages from our guests.
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And until next time, remember, a little change goes a long way.