Ann

How many times a day do you ask yourself, whether you’re doing the right thing, making the right decision about your kids? I mean just think about the number of issues you juggle and consider and fret about on a daily basis. It’s staggering. Should I text them about this, should I intervene in that, should I say something to that parent or email this teacher or do this thing that all the other parents seem to be doing? You can second-guess yourself to death. Aren’t there some overarching rules we can use to guide us in all this? Yes – absolutely. Stay with me.

This is Speaking of Teens, the podcast that helps parents who are struggling to find peace and connection with their teens. My name is Ann Coleman; I’m an attorney turned parent educator and a mom who has been there - and I’m on a mission to help you build a stronger relationship and decrease the conflict with your kid so you can help them grow into the young adult they’re meant to be.

 

Today we’re going to talk about some of those overarching foundations that will help you feel more confident in your parenting decisions. And you have to stay until the very end because I’m going to wrap this up all nice and neat for you.

I recently met Keri Cooper and invited her on the show because she has some really solid answers for you. Keri provides holistic psychotherapy for children and adolescents. And by holistic she’s not talking about just providing different types of therapies but combining the psychological with the physical because she’s also a health coach. And Keri focuses on helping kids deal with ADHD, stress, anxiety, and depression – and specifically works with her high school and college clients to teach them the coping skills they’re going to need as an adult, out in the real world because it seems 21^st century parents are dropping the ball a bit in this area.

She’s written a book for parents to lay it out for you called Mental Health Uncensored: 10 Foundations Every Parent Needs to Know. And in in the book, she discusses 5 physical foundations (getting enough water, sleep, looking at the food connection, exercise and learning meditation) – truly some mind-blowing stuff in there.

And she also addresses what she calls the mental health foundations: teaching kids to learn to set their own boundaries, teaching them that they’re not responsible for other people’s feelings, for us to do a better job supporting their autonomy, allowing them to experience disappointment and teaching them to take more responsibility for themselves.

While we don’t tackle all the foundations in this episode, we did start with a crucial one - supporting our kids’ and teens’ autonomy. It appears 21^st century parents are too in touch, too on top of things, take care of too much, and don’t allow kids to make their own mistakes. Why are we parenting so differently in these areas than our parents did?

Keri Cooper

I think one of the reasons why it's changed so dramatically over the years is because when we were growing up, we didn't have the ability to instantly connect with our parents and say, hey, what should I type to my teacher about this? Or, hey, my friend just told me this. So now it's like this instant with their phones, especially at school, oh my gosh, this person just didn't sit with me at lunch. What do I do? And the parents are automatically responding because they also are strapped that cell phone.

 

So I tell parents all the time, one, act like you have a full-time job even if you don't. And two, act like we're in Northern New Jersey, so we're kind of right outside New York City. I say, pretend like you work in New York City and you can't get to your kids. And also pretend like it's before cell phones and that they can't get to you anyway. Because being able to be there automatically - what you're doing is when your child is feeling a little bit uncomfortable, they're reaching out. And their feelings of being uncomfortable are immediately taken away because you're saving the day. It is okay for your children to feel uncomfortable. And I can't say that loud enough. I am not saying they should be in physical pain. I am not saying they should be mentally tormented, but they are okay to be a little bit uncomfortable and to figure it out on their own what to do next.

And that's when dinnertime conversations come in handy. Hey, how was your day? What happened? Oh, OK, you did that. Yeah, you could have also done x, y, and z. This is maybe how I would have handled it. To then reprocess the day. But they have to be able to attempt to problem solve, win or lose, because either way, it's going to teach them something. But we're taking that away from them. So then we send them off to college. And I get, in my office, I get a lot of overachievers, straight A students, president of every club, sports captains, and I tell the parents the same thing. Your child is academically perfectly capable of going to college. However, they cannot boil a pot of water and they cannot email a teacher independently. And that is a problem. And I have now seen too many college students fail out of college because they don't have those skills.

 

Ann

Is so sad. So it really, you know, the kids, I never thought about it that way, but it's the instant access to parents and it's the parents' ability to instantly access them, like during the day, asking them about their grades or reminding them to do something or asking them if they've done something yet or whatever it is.

 

Keri Cooper

Yes, I mean, you just hit it on the head, especially with access to the parent portals or whatever system your school is using. The parents are checking in throughout the day and then reminding their kids, hey, you didn't turn in your science assignment, go talk to your teacher. Listen, if your child has the same access, if they can't figure out what is missing, there is a bigger problem at hand, especially at the high school level. If you are still checking grades at the high school level, not grades, but like your day-to-day homework assignments, there is a problem.

 

Ann

Why do we ever, I mean, whose idea was it to come up with these parent portals? That was the bane of my existence when my child was in school. They really should. I felt like I had to check it constantly. And, you know, I think there's too much pressure because of that. I think there is too much pressure on the parent to feel like, well, it's my responsibility. The school is telling me.

 

Keri Cooper

They need to be shut down. It's not helpful.

 

Ann

It's my responsibility. It's called a parent portal. It's not called a student portal. It's called a freaking parent portal. I had a, oh yeah, tell me, tell me.

 

Keri Cooper

I have a great story about that. So I think it's Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey. One of those states does like a free skiing for fourth graders at like a lot of different places, but you need a report card to show that you're a fourth grade student. So I had a fourth grader at the time, and I didn't know how to log in to get her report card because at the age.

I see what comes home in their come home folder and I look at their come home folder and I see what work they're doing and the tests and all of that. So I am fully aware of how they're doing in school. I don't need to look at their report card that's online per se, that's like threes, twos or ones at that age. In high school, I'll look at the report card obviously. So I had to call up the front desk and I was like, hi, I need a copy of her report card to do skiing. And she's like, Mrs. Cooper, we've been online for six years. And you don't know how to get in. And I was like, no, I don't. Ha ha ha.

 

Ann

I was the exact same way. I had no idea how to get his report card in the end. And I really should have because he had ADHD, he was under an IEP, all of these things. But I still did not stay on top of it like I know a lot of people do whose children don't have IEPs and don't have 504s. But I had a lady, yeah, there is a little different. But I had a woman the other day told me that...

 

Keri Cooper

Right, because there's a different meaning, right, based on the kid. Absolutely.

 

Ann

I was talking to a mom. Her child is in fifth grade and I was talking to her about letting go, you know, letting, you know, stop all the reminding about homework, stop the constant, you know, checking up on the grades, let him fail a little bit. Honestly, if they're going to learn from failure, it's better to learn in middle school than in high school or God forbid in college. So, you know, it's not gonna count towards their GPA, let him fail, right? So...

 

But she said that the school, the teachers, had literally told them at this age, literally, do not let your foot off the gas, parents, at this age. So in other words, you need to be on top of this day in and day out. And I said, you know, I just feel that's wrong. I feel that's just absolutely wrong. So is that what, I mean, are we, are our parents taking it upon themselves to go to these links?

Or are we getting that message from schools to be so involved?

 

Keri Cooper

I think it's a mix of both, unfortunately. And I think in terms of the schools, you know, they obviously don't want kids failing. It doesn't look good for them. So they want parents involved because of that reason. And right now with the culture of the schools, you really can't have a child fail. It is almost impossible to have a child fail. I mean, you have to work at it. There's so many safety nets in place. And that's not to say, you know, we don't want our children to fail.

 

But if a kid is doing nothing, if a kid is putting no effort in, they really need to get the grade that they deserve. I mean, I have to tell you, I find it very rare for any children to get below a B at this point with minimal efforts and missing homeworks and all of that. So I'm not sure what we're teaching these children.

 

Ann

You know, I noticed, I read in your book something about that, and I've heard this and I've heard both sides of it now, but about letting kids take a test over if they didn't make a certain grade. And so on one side of it, I can see where, okay, maybe you don't want just a grade to reflect, you know, what you know or don't know if you just kind of screwed up or something, I don't know. So let them take it, what difference does it make? But then to your point, you know, if you let them do it over, they're not taking responsibility for not having studied or not having done the work, right? So I didn't even know schools were actually doing this. I mean, I've heard of it just mentioned here and there. So your child's school does this?

 

Keri Cooper

So not necessarily my child's school, however, neighboring school districts, I know one school district in particular where if the child gets below an 80, it's mandatory they have to retake the test. So what are you telling your kids? That you can't be a C student? Of course you could be a C student. I was a C student. You know, like there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone works differently. Right? I can laugh about it now because I have a master's from an Ivy League university. However,

 

Ann

Right. Oh God, me too. Absolutely. Season D, in some cases. Yeah. Right. Right, right.

 

Keri Cooper

Cool, I did not do well with that stuff. That doesn't mean I'm not smart. So...

 

 

Keri Cooper

Yeah, so I think, you know, we have to really look at that. Like if a kid does poorly on a test and you're saying, okay, do test corrections and I'll give you some points back, that's fine. That's how they're learning then from their mistakes. But to basically just say, okay, retake the whole test again when now they know what to expect and now they kind of know the answers and we're just spoon feeding them.

 

Ann

And we are telling, like to your point, we're telling them that an 80 is not good enough when an 80 is actually average. You know, a C is average. It's okay. Yeah, I did not know that like entire districts were doing that. I thought that it was maybe teacher by teacher or something. That's insane. So building these basic skills, I mean, what parents need to understand then

 

Keri Cooper

Yes.

 

Ann

We've got to let our foot off the gas a little bit, right? We need to back up some. Tell me, I know you mentioned just a little bit in your book, a little bit about friendships. Friendships are probably a much bigger deal with girls than they are with boys, or at least because of the relational aggression that you see in girls, it's a little bit different to deal with.

 

I see parents a lot, mothers especially, who feel like they have to get involved in the child's friendships and make inroads for them or help them if there's a problem. Tell me a little bit about what you advise parents about that because that comes up a lot.

 

Keri Cooper

Yeah. Right, I mean, it definitely depends on the age, but when we start looking at middle school, parents need to really start backing out of that social picture. Your child needs to be contacting other people to say, hey, let's hang out, not necessarily you, talking to other parents, trying to organize that. Like, it has to shift. When they're young, yes, you're the one reaching out to parents, hey, do you want a play date? But as they get older, that has to shift.

 

They have to start taking that ownership and that responsibility of knowing how to reach out to people and knowing how to connect. And when there's problems, you know, you could sit down at the end of the night or in the morning and always talk about what's going on and different ways of handling it, but you better be real careful before you start picking up the phone and calling another parent to deal with it. Unless it's a situation where there is, you know, really some massive bullying happening.

 

If it's just like two girls are not getting along, you need to not be involved in that one. They need to be able to figure it out. And so often the kids will figure it out and then the parents are still fighting. And it's like they got over it.

 

Ann

Exactly. Yep. My mother is 89. I won't tell you how old I am, but my mother still holds a grudge against a girl from eighth grade who was mean to me. So yeah, I get that. But you know, so where, you know, when you say when there's a case of extreme bullying or something like that. So when you have a kid, you know, now with the cell phones and social media.

 

 

Ann

and someone is doing something online, is that a point where you think the mom or dad should get involved and make a phone call to a parent?

 

Keri Cooper

Again, I think it's like what is happening online if they're just going back and forth on their snaps being like, I hate you, like no one likes you, like all that type of stuff. This is typical stuff. If it's go kill yourself, yeah, you need to get involved. If they're plastering social media with unkind photos of your child, that's where you get involved. You have to look for those more like extreme circumstances.

 

And I have to tell you, boys are no easier than girls. They hide it better, but the boy friendships are really tough as well.

 

Ann

Yeah, we did deal with that with my son in high school, I will say. So yeah, that was kind of a little unfair for me to say, it's mostly girls. It's not, I mean, but I do see the girls, I think being a little more vocal and maybe a little more backstabbing than the boys perhaps, but the bullying and the mean things and the, yeah, all of that has gotten worse, I believe, just because they can do it so easily on their phones.

 

Keri Cooper

Yeah. The problem. You know, their brains are not fully developed and we're giving them this thing where they could just instantly speak their mind. And it's like what a recipe for disaster. They're going to say stupid things. They're going to say dumb things. They're going to say unkind things. Because imagine if every one of your thoughts could be blasted out there for everyone to see.

 

Ann

Right. Well, and what I'm hearing you say is really if a kid, you know, we kind of have to take ourselves back to when we were growing up. I grew up in a, I know, in a little bit different era than when you grew up, but neither one of us had cell phones. So pre-cell phone, if a parent wouldn't get involved with the back and forth, nyan stuff, then we really shouldn't be getting involved now. But if it's something where it goes beyond that, where it's something that really couldn't have been done, you know,

 

 

Ann

30 years ago, and they're sharing pictures. So really that's kind of a good, I think, way to look at it, right?

 

Keri Cooper

Yes, absolutely. And again, it comes with age as well. Younger ones, you're gonna jump in quicker. Hopefully you're gonna push off them having social media for a little bit as long as you can. But seniors in high school, you're really gonna double think before you get involved in friendships. And especially college. College should basically be off limits. Ha ha ha.

 

 

Ann

Um. Right, right. Well, so. I mean, really, and we can say, you know, for a few seconds, because we do have parents, obviously, that listen to the show that have kids who are older and kids who are younger. But if your kid is in college, I want to get into the monitoring and the tracking and that kind of thing. So when they go off to college, is there any reason for a parent to still have, like say, about what time they get home or whether they turned in homework or studied for a test? I mean, tell me about that a little bit.

 

Keri Cooper

Here's the deal with college. If you feel confident enough in your child to send them away to college, then you have to be confident enough in your child. You can't have it both ways. So if you're saying, okay, I trust my child that they can handle college, then you have to back out. If you feel like your child can't handle college and needs to stay home, keep them home. There is nothing wrong with that. Some kids are not ready to go away.

 

Keri Cooper

But if you're saying they're ready to go away, then you need to have that confidence in them. And you have to have the confidence in yourself as a parent that you've prepared them well enough for this. There is no reason to be tracking them at college. There is no purpose to it whatsoever. I'm gonna tell you what kids are doing now in college, especially the girls. They are leaving their phones in their rooms or in a friend's room when they're going out at night. Because they're tired of the questions from the parents. 3 in the morning, you were in at your dorm, right? Because they were hooking up with somebody. Do you really want to know that? So they're leaving their phones now. I'd much rather have my child have a phone on them in case there is an emergency and they need to call for an Uber or whatever the case, rather than keeping their phone somewhere.

 

Ann

So what about the parent that says, well, the reason I do it is because I want to make sure they're safe. Is that not a little bit of a crutch? Yeah. I mean, how can you make sure they're safe? Yeah.

 

Keri Cooper

What does that mean? Right. When Don kidnaps your child, the first thing they're gonna do is get rid of the phone. So what does that mean? Like, because their phone could be right next to them in the dorm room and some medical trauma could have happened and they could be on the floor dead. You want it? No. So it's this false sense of security. It's well, I know where they are, but that means nothing. That means you know where their phone is. You don't know where they are. You don't know that they're okay. It's a false sense of security.

 

Ann

And even if you do know where they are, you don't know what's happening where they are. So, and there's nothing you could do about it much unless you unless somebody picked up the phone and called you and told you what was going on. I just think it's sad that kids are leaving their phones in their dorm room. And I do know I recently just looked at a survey. Of course, it was done by Life360. But they were talking. Yeah, I know. But they were talking about how kids in college or using the app with each other to maybe keep tabs on each other, where that sounds like a pretty good plan, I guess, but it's not a parent monitoring them. It's a little bit different.

 

Keri Cooper

So it's a good plan until it isn't. Because then you get the friends, you told me you didn't wanna go out tonight, you were out with so and so I saw in your life360. Or you get the relationships of the jealous boyfriend or girlfriend, why were you out there? And it causes fights. Nobody needs to know where your location is.

 

 

Ann

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Now that, I didn't even think about that, but the boyfriend-girlfriend thing, which I do see a lot with them tracking each other. And that should be, well, yeah, we need to talk to our kids about that. That's part of that whole relationship journey and talk about not being possessive, but with parents. So let's go back down from college and let's get back into like high school, middle school and the tracking and the Life360 and-

 

 

Ann

monitoring everything. I mean, where should we draw the line? Is it okay that we're tracking our kids, you think, in high school constantly or?

 

Keri Cooper

I think you have to always ask yourself for what? Like, what is the reason I'm doing this? And if the reason makes sense to you, then okay. I know some parents, they just like to track when their kids are new drivers, just to make sure they got from destination A to destination B. It makes them feel better, and they don't need to constantly call and text and say, you know, are you there? And sometimes kids forget, and it just eases them. Okay, I personally don't track.

 

I tell my children, I expect if you leave a location that you're gonna shoot me a text. Do they always do that? Absolutely not. But my parents also didn't know where I was at all. Ha ha ha.

 

Ann

Exactly, exactly. And you know, I think that's something that we tend to forget. And I've heard a lot of parents say, but it's different nowadays. It's more dangerous. It really isn't, is it?

 

Keri Cooper

It's not, it's not, no, it's not more dangerous. We just hear about it more. You know, the news is in your face constantly. It's constantly in the palm of your hands. So we hear about it all the time, but it's no more dangerous now than it was. And if you're really concerned about the danger levels, you know, what has increased is people or kids meeting people online who are posing as other kids. That has increased, that has changed. That wasn't there before.

And that's again about them not being friends with somebody who they haven't met physically and teaching them. But you know, we can't give our kids Snapchat and TikTok and all of that and then say, oh, but like I need to monitor your every move. You're not monitoring them online. You just aren't.

 

Ann

You can't, I mean, you really, I mean, you know, even that, I think, gives us a false sense of security when we have, you know, all the apps and the monitoring and the online. I mean, we cannot possibly monitor everything and watch their every move. That's why they made us parents. That's why God made us parents. We have to teach them what to do when we're not around, right? And make sure that they have those, the values and just the...

 

 

Ann

basic knowledge of what can happen. And I know that's so hard. It's hard actually when we are of a different generation and we don't even really fully understand what can happen online in some cases. We've not had that same experience and we don't even know what to tell kids to watch for in a lot of cases.

 

Keri Cooper

It's a whole new conversation. I mean, we did not have to have a conversation when we were young about sending each other naked pictures. That is a real conversation that has to be had at this point.

 

Ann

Oh my god. Yeah, we would have never considered such a thing.

 

Keri Cooper

We will have to take a picture, get it developed. We'll give it to them. It took a while.

 

Ann

Yeah, mail it, put it in the mail. Yeah, we would have never considered. That's the thing. That is, it is kind of mind boggling to me that a 13-year-old or a 12-year-old or a 16, however old, would actually do that. And tell me what you hear from your clients about this, because my understanding from the research I've read, is that it is so common to do that, that it is just part, basically part of the courtship. Right? I mean, so tell me, what do you hear? What do they tell you? What do your girls and boys tell you?

 

Keri Cooper

Yes. Yuck. So it is completely common and for both genders to be sending the pictures. Um, and you know, it's, it's like so impulsive almost. It's one of those like, oh, can you send it to me? Like if you, you know, if you love me, you will and no one's going to see it. And like the phone's right there and they're like, okay. And, and there, there it goes into the world.

 

Ann

And are they not, I mean, by now, after people have been doing this for several years, and they hear of boyfriends and girlfriends breaking up, and they hear of revenge porn, and they hear of people sharing it at school. So there's none of that little, maybe I shouldn't do this. It's, is it.

 

Keri Cooper

Mm-hmm. Yes. No, because too quick. They're doing it too quickly. You know, if you talk to these kids and say, is it a good idea to send naked pictures? They're all gonna tell you, no, it's not a good idea. In the moment, sounds like a great idea. That brain. And that's why I tell parents that one of the rules you should have in your house is that their phone should not be in their bedroom. Because the naked pictures are not going at three o'clock in the afternoon.

 

Ann

So, it's just that brain. That brain, yeah, yeah.

 

Keri Cooper

They're going in the middle of the night. And if your child doesn't have their phone in their bedroom in the middle of the night, they can't answer that. So don't put them in that situation, pull the phones out and model it. I don't have my phone. Nobody needs you that badly. If one of my kids is out of the house, yes, then I'll have my phone and it's on do not disturb except for that child. But you got to put limits on stuff. You don't need to be instantly available all the time and neither do your children.

 

Ann

You said something that really caught my eye when you were talking about disappointment in your book about being respectful of other people's opinions that...you know, just because they have a different opinion doesn't mean you have to hate them. It doesn't mean that you even have to argue about it. So what do you see? Because obviously we see it on the news, we see it with adults, we see it with politicians, we see it with wars going on. So this trickles down to the adolescents. And so what are you seeing and how they're handling this kind of thing?

 

Keri Cooper

It trickles so far down that they now feel like if someone doesn't give them the response that they would have given, that person must be wrong. And it's like, back up, hold on. Cause you know, some kids will sit there and say like, well, I posted that I was having a rough day and my friend didn't say, what can I do for you? And I would have said that to them. I said, and that's great that you would have said that to me. But maybe your friend had their own stuff going on.

 

Maybe they were busy. You don't know what's happening in their life. But they're like, but no, they had to tell me that they were gonna be there for me. I was like, they didn't. And that doesn't necessarily make them a bad friend. You have no idea what was happening for them. And I think that we're seeing this more and more. And it's like this black and white thinking, right or wrong, the world is gray. There are very few things that are right or wrong. There's a lot of gray everywhere. And I think it is this, trickle down from society as a whole of where we've come. And it's really sad. It's really sad because somebody could do things 20 different ways than what you're gonna do. It doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

Ann

And they're getting this too. I mean, I think, you know, as parents, we have to be so careful about, or we should be more careful about what we say when we say it, when we're watching the news, when we hear something on the radio, or, you know, something pops up on our phone. There are so many people these days who are like, you know, the other side, whatever the other side is, is just flat out wrong. This is the only way. I feel like we're building a society of children who don't understand that there are always two, three, four, five different ways to see something and that one way is not necessarily the right way and the other person who is equally as determined that their way is the right way, maybe they're right, you know, or maybe there is no right. What are we, where are we failing?

 

Keri Cooper

Right. And it's that, it's that like, what's right and what's wrong, and then not being comfortable with that middle area that really gets them. Like they have so much anxiety, they need answers. It's really anxiety driven, like I need answers. This is right, this is wrong. And that's how I'm living my life. And it's like, no, take a step back. There's so many different ways we could play this out.

 

Ann

Okay. Yeah, now that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So kids are more, they want concrete. They want something that they can say, this is the way it is because anything else makes them feel uncomfortable or uneasy. Yeah, that makes so much sense.

 

Keri Cooper

I describe it a lot in friendships. So, you know, I'll have one girl in my office and she's like, I always reach out to my friends. I'm always asking them to hang out. Okay, that's how you show that you're a good friend. What are your friends doing to show you that they're a good friend? They don't ask me to hang out. Okay, step away. What are they doing? And then it's like, oh, well, she always gives me half of her lunch at lunchtime. Ah, that's...how she's being a good friend. We all show up differently. Like our love language is all different. It is, it is, but I just like, look at your parents. I would say, how did they show up for you? And do they show up for you differently?

 

Ann (

Yeah, that's so hard for kids to understand, isn't it?

 

Keri Cooper

You know, everyone shows up differently.

 

Ann

Well, the friendship thing too, you talked about how we try so hard to fill another person's cup, that kids in school these days are taught to, fill someone else's cup and make sure that everyone else is okay, and that we're really kind of sending the wrong message to people. I mean, I've had friends, I'm sure you have, I've had friends that I'm like, how, dear God, how do they do all this?

 

that every time somebody cracks a toenail, they're there with a basket of brownies and a balloon. Or, I mean, really, they're making goodies for the tennis team and they're doing this and that. It's like they are a full-time friend to everyone. And I just don't even get how people do that. But I mean, showing that to kids too, that we have to always be doing for other people, I mean, it just,

 

Keri Cooper

Hahaha!

 

Ann

I can't imagine any more anxiety than having that need to have to do something for other people. So what are we teaching our kids about this?

 

Keri Cooper

Well, we're teaching them not to put up boundaries. You know, we have to have boundaries for ourselves and to teach our children that we're allowed to say no to people, that we're not responsible for other people's feelings. And that doesn't mean don't be a good person, but their happiness is not dependent on you. It can't be, that it's too big of an order. And I talk about this in my foundations, you know, boundaries, not responsible for other people's feelings. It's so important. And...for kids to understand that no one is responsible for their feelings. You have to build yourself up. And we have taught these kids, unfortunately, to continually look for external validation. And it starts early on, as you brought up filling up each other's cups, there's the whole bucket filling, and they're coming home like, oh, we did bucket filling. Fill up your own bucket. Fill up your own bucket, and then no one can dump it out.

 

But when you're relying on everybody else to say something kind about you, that then translates into social media and how many likes do I have? And you don't have your own sense of self.

 

Ann

And so kids, I noticed, I think you said this in your book, that they're not getting, are they getting the difference between how someone makes them feel and how they feel? You know, that emotion is not something that someone does to you, but it's something that you feel because of the way you interpret things. I mean, because it's so important to understand emotions and how this all happens. Are they putting that externally on other people to make them feel good. Is that what you're saying?

 

Keri Cooper

They are, they really are. And it's a sad thing to watch because it then makes them powerless.

 

Ann

That's so sad.

 

 

Keri Cooper

Like you have to be okay with you and your emotions regardless of how everybody else is that day. And that's a hard lesson. It's a hard lesson.

 

Ann

And you can't depend. Yeah.

And I thought this was interesting. This is where I got to when we got on, but I thought it was really interesting. You were saying that a lot of people, and I've had an episode on this, about all the pressure that's put on kids in the high achieving schools, and that kids of upper middle class, they are under more pressure and have more mental health issues than kids raised in the ghetto.

 

And it's amazing. So I have not heard this thing about getting 504s for your kids so that they could have a leg up. So what is that all about? I've never even heard of that.

 

Keri Cooper

Yeah, so it's very interesting when you look at the research and I referenced it in my book, wealthier schools are having more 504 plans. And it's really because extra time for a child who's smart is going to 100% increase their scores.

 

So we have a lot of kids who are getting extra time, not because they have a processing issue, not because they have a learning issue. And listen, there are some kids who desperately need that extra time and should 100% get it. And then there are kids who are doing it just to inflate their grades. And that's happening more and more. It's not hard to get a 504. Anyone with anxiety can basically get one. It's different than an IEP.

 

Ann

Okay, because I'm hearing it on the other side too, that kids with anxiety, kids who are having an issue getting to school because of anxiety, and they have school avoidance, that getting that 504 could help, but it sounded like it was a little hard to get. I mean, I remember having to turn in something from...

 

I think his psychiatrist or psychologist saying that he'd been tested and that he does have ADHD and all that stuff. Now that was for an IEP though. Okay. So 504. Yeah.

 

Keri Cooper

Yes, IEP is a whole process and IEP you need testing and all that. 504 is very different. So, and a 504 will get you that extra time on these standardized tests.

 

Ann (35:53.374)

Okay. And so that gives them what? Like 10 or 15 extra minutes per section or something on the SAT.

 

Keri Cooper

I'm not sure the exact breakdown, but it's a significant amount of time. Um, and when you, you know, I think I have a quote in my book from somebody from the college board or one of the groups like that who said, like, give extra time and these bright kids are going to score significantly better.

 

Ann

Yeah. Yeah, I think it was like 100 points.

 

 

Keri Cooper

And the whole point of. Right. And the whole point of these tests is to let colleges see what, you know, how they're going to do in college. But when you're giving them all this extra time, you're really not. You're not judging that.

Ann

Right. And then you send them off to college and we're teaching the child themselves if we do something like that, that we don't trust that they can do well enough or as good as they do is not good enough and so let's get you more time. So we really have to watch that. I know there is so much pressure on kids that they also are putting on themselves. I know this is not all parents. But where is it coming from though if it's not the parents? It's so competitive. Now it's so, so different than it was just a few years ago. Where is all this competition between the kids coming from?

 

Keri Cooper

No, not at all. Not at all.

Well, I mean, think about it. Everything is posted on social media. So right when they get into a college, it's, I got in here. And it's like this constant social media posting. And then kids are in my office being like, so and so got in there. So and so got here. This one got a scholarship. And it's like, when we were in school, like, yeah, like you kind of knew what was happening, but it wasn't posted every single day. So there's just so much more pressure because of that. Like, and then of course schools have, you know, college shirt day where everyone wears their shirt that you know, they go down to colleges for senior year and it's so great. I have had kids not go to school that day because they were embarrassed because of what school they got into.

 

Ann

God, that just makes me sad, how can schools think that that's a good idea? How can they think that's a good idea when some kids are not going to college, which is fine. My son didn't go to college? Yeah. I mean, and going to junior college is fine and going to cosmetology school or trade school is fine. All right, so I'm one of those moms who...

 

Keri Cooper

Perfectly fine. Right.

 

Ann

If I wasn't at the school getting involved and saying, you know, let my child do this, but I would be the mom saying, this is stupid. This is ridiculous. We do not need to do this. We do not need to be so focused on this. But I was also the mom that didn't post my kid on social media at all either, you know? And I mean, God knows there was the pressure to do so, but you know, it's the parents, right? Who are posting, look at where my child is going to school.

 

Keri Cooper (38:29.13)

Mm-hmm.

 

Keri Cooper (38:37.642)

Right, right.

 

Ann (38:49.755)

It's the parents saying, look, oh my gosh, my kid got this score on the SAT or this score on the ACT and got all these scholarships. I mean, and I know that there is pressure, you feel pressure to do that because everyone else is doing it. And if your kid got into a good college too, then why not put it out there? But at some point, don't some of us need to back up and say, this is not helping our kids and we need to use our brains a little bit here about or preach to me.

 

Keri Cooper

Absolutely, absolutely. But I also tell the kids, you have to learn in life to just swim your own race and to stop comparing yourselves to everybody else because there's also that reality. It does, and I tell them all the time, like, listen, I hear all the great colleges that all these kids get into. I also hear when they call me a year later or two years later, now they've failed out. You know, the schools aren't tracking who's graduating from these colleges because more and more kids are transferring, more and more kids are dropping out.

 

Ann

Yeah. And, and you know, I was shocked. I read, I think it was John Duffy's book. He said that there are 30% of college freshmen, a full 30% of kids come home after the first semester. That, that was mind blowing. I had to look it up. I'm like, that cannot be right. But 30% I mean, that, what does that tell you? I mean, what, how does that translate? What is the problem?

 

Keri Cooper

It tells them, it tells us, or it should tell us that our children are not independent enough, they don't have the life skills, they don't have the problem solving skills, and their grades were most likely inflated and they couldn't be at the college that they went to.

 

Ann

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've been preaching more and more lately about, you know what, there's nothing wrong with a junior college. You know, when you transfer to a college and, you know, you do it right, you still get that diploma with that school's name printed on it. It doesn't say, oh, but by the way, they went, you know, two years to a junior college and this is just their graduate. You know, it just, it kills me because of all the anxiety and all the depression that we're not looking at ways to alleviate the big pressures. And that to me, that whole college thing. Now, I know, and I think this is true. I mean, you're from the Northeast, I'm from the South. I am pretty darn sure that the pressure is more on the kids in the Northeast and maybe on the, I get my, I'm confused, Northwest, and maybe Southwest, but to get into the ivies or to get into the more, you know, prestigious schools, it is not that way here. And I think it's because of the, maybe because of the locale, just the regions, because that's where the schools are. You have more parents who graduated from those schools. You have more, you know, alumni. You have more, it's just more in your face.

 

Ann

What do you think? I wonder if there's a bit of a study on that because it just, you know, here it's like you go to the University of Alabama or you go to the, you know, I lived in South Carolina for 25 years. Clemson was a very hard school to get into. So Clemson was considered the school to get into. The Carolina people are going to hate me. But anyway, you know, it was just, I don't understand this whole thing. And I do think it's regional. So,

 

 

Ann

Tell me a little bit. So where you live in New Jersey, I mean, everybody is all about getting into the Ivys. Is that true?

 

 

Keri Cooper (42:37.166)

I mean, that is the goal or one of the very top rated schools. Everybody knows the rankings of the schools.

 

Ann

Yeah. And so...

 

Keri Cooper

And I tell them the same thing. It doesn't matter where you go. It matters what you do with it.

 

Ann

Yeah, exactly. I mean, you can go to a state school, and this is what I try to tell parents too, I mean, go to whatever school they can get into and you can afford to pay for, and then you're right. Once you get out, pass that first job, which no one gets a fabulous job right out of college, unless you do, maybe go to one of the IVs, maybe you do, but that's not the job you're gonna be in forever. So,

 

Keri Cooper

Yes.

 

Ann

You know, it is, I think a lot of it's personality. I think a lot of it is having those skills, the same skills that you use to go off to college and take care of yourself and speak for yourself and all of those that you will use to further yourself in life. And those are social and emotional skills, right?

 

Keri Cooper

Yes. And again, this whole college thing comes down to this external validation. Oh, well, I got in here. You know, my child got in here. Look at what a great parent I am. Ha ha ha.

 

Ann

Or my child got in here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, that the kids aren't the ones making their picture and putting it online. So I also wonder, you know, my son told me flat out, you're not making my picture and putting it on social media. And he was 10 or 11. And so I quit. I'm like, I'm done. I'm not doing it anymore. But most kids, I guess, don't.

 

They're so used to seeing the back of that camera their whole life that they just don't speak up for themselves and it's just so common. Is that right? I think my son's 22. So, you know, the smartphones came out just about the time that he would be getting a smartphone. So when he was like 11, 12, 13 years old. So it was all a new thing. But now all these kids have grown up with that smartphone right there in their face. Is that the difference? That these kids are just they just don't know any different than to be plastered all over social media.

 

Keri Cooper

think so. I think it's just so common right now. And yeah, as parents, it's like you really have to pull back and you know, you want to show off like your lovely family and all of that's a great way to connect to people but watch how much you're posting, watch what you're posting, you know, and take a step back.

 

Keri Cooper

All right, my number one thing, and it is probably the thing I get the most pushback with parents is I always say, when your child is physically capable of doing it, they need to do their own laundry. And let me tell you why. When they do laundry on their own, without you reminding them, that's the key to this too, they have to pre-plan. Oh, my jersey's dirty and I have a game this Saturday. They have to use time management skills.

 

I have this practice this day, tomorrow is free. It is the best thing ever because it's a consequence, that's a natural consequence. If they don't do their laundry, guess what? They're just wearing dirty laundry. You don't punish them, you don't get involved, you teach them how to do it and then you step away. You don't remind them, you don't care what their drawers look like and how they organize it. Let them do it.

 

Ann

or if there are clothes all over the floor. Yeah, I have said that myself over and over again. It's, you know, quit worrying about the bedroom and all the dirty clothes on the floor and that they're not in the hamper for you to wash. Let them wear dirty clothes, you know? Let them learn to turn their underwear wrong side out. But yeah, but that does, it does teach a lot of life skills, doesn't it? I didn't think about that. Yeah, the pre-planning.

 

Keri Cooper

Mm-hmm.

It does. It really does. It's like the best one out there. And, you know, my youngest daughter who's in fourth grade, she's been doing her laundry since probably kindergarten. Sometimes she's helping the basket downstairs because the basket gets very heavy because she does not do her laundry often at all. But besides that, we'll bring it downstairs for her when she was little. And then she would do it. So in kindergarten, you know, it takes a lot of preplanning for laundry. And there are many days and I talk about this when I give talks to parents and, you know, when I'm doing my speaking gigs. And I always tell the story about how, you know, she would scream out of her room one morning, "'Mom, I don't have any clean underwear." And I'm like, well, figure it out. And next time, maybe when you have like three pairs left, you might wanna do laundry. Okay, and then she'd go. And I don't know if she wore dirty underwear or no underwear or her sister's underwear. And honestly, I don't care. She figured it out, it's cool.

 

Ann

That is fantastic. I mean, I tell you, if we could have the restraint as parents to let those things happen, that's another quote I think I saw in your book, a parent's talking about, but I can't step back. And this, I said this a million times. If I step back, he's gonna fail. If I step back, this is gonna happen or that is gonna happen. And I think the laundry thing, I mean,

 

If they're good, if they wear dirty clothes, that's not gonna kill them. And the grades thing, if you do it in middle school and you learn to back up, the grades aren't gonna kill them. And I mean, have you seen where this, I mean, I know you do it, obviously, so it works, right? I mean, they end up making the grades and doing fine, right? I mean, maybe not spectacular, but.

 

Keri Cooper

Right.

Stop it.

Absolutely. But well, every kid is different. And it's also about respecting their differences and where they're at. You know, like I have a child who will remain nameless, but they could be a much better student if they push themselves. They don't want to. So they're like still above average because they're bright, but I know they could be a better student, but they don't want to be a better student. And I can't make them want to be a better student. And that's okay.

 

Ann

What a great point, you know, and I was the exact same way. I mean, every report card, Anne could do so much better if she would just apply herself. What, I didn't wanna apply myself. I was lazy and I didn't wanna do it. But you know what I did? When I got into college and when I was in law school, I applied the hell out of myself and did great. But you know, you're right. We cannot make someone else be motivated and external motivations will only get you so far. So we have to learn.

 

Keri Cooper

Exactly.

No they don't work. The research shows that it doesn't work. And that's the question I get from parents all the time in my office. How do I motivate them? I said, you don't. You don't. They need to find what they enjoy. Let them find what they enjoy. And if they don't enjoy math, you're not gonna make them enjoy math.

 

Ann

That's a big pill to swallow for parents too. I mean, how do we, because that's one of the biggest questions. How do I motivate them? And I hear it more, I think, the boys. I think maybe that's just a tendency. You know, he'd rather play video games. He'd rather, you know, just lay around and do nothing. You can't make him want to do schoolwork. There's just no way to do that.

 

Keri Cooper

It is.

Mm-hmm.

 

Ann

you know, unless they see, and I think if you, and this is what I tell people, and I hope this is true because guess what, I didn't do it, but I learned after the fact, but letting them get to the point where they are not doing well at all. And that, for some kids, now some kids may flunk out, I don't know, but I mean, for some kids, I think it's like, okay, wait a minute. I mean, I know I can do better than this. So they do start, but they may have to hit rock bottom, like, you know, we say in other areas.

 

Keri Cooper

The other thing is lots of times they're not motivated because they know they don't need to be because they know you're gonna be there as a safety net to tell them you have homework, you have homework, let's study together, take away the safety net.

 

Ann

Take away that safety net. If you haven’t started it with younger ones, don’t do it. Did you have a safety net? Think back. Were your parents constantly asking you if you had homework or had done your homework? Were they even home with you in the afternoons? Going back to where we started here – they didn’t have instant access to everything we were doing…gps tracking and online portals that report everything but how many times our kids pee each day!

And they didn’t have Life 360 to drive themselves crazy with where we were all the times – they had to just trust that we’d get home okay. They couldn’t talk to us at school unless it was an emergency (I remember when the put the pay phone in at my high school and I thought, what’s THAT for?) They didn’t make things all rosy for us all the time – and we figured it out. Were they were simply further removed from our lives altogether? Maybe. Most of our parents were likely more emotionally removed in addition to just not being in the middle of everything. They were more authoritarian. But there’s a way to stay connected to our kids without going too far.

I love what Keri tells her clients about pretending you work in the city, or you work full time even if you don’t. You can’t do everything, be everywhere, respond to all requests. You could just pretend like you’re parenting in the late 80s or early 90s.

We’re guilty of building a world for our kids in which they can’t function without us. We’re teaching them that they can’t do things on their own – that we’re afraid that they may fail – that we have no faith in their ability to do things that we did by ourselves and that we really don’t trust them to.

So, our anxiety rules the day and shows them that being anxious is just part of everyday life. That’s not what we want to teach them.

Step back – take away the unnecessary safety nets – let them do the things they’re capable of doing – let them stretch their abilities. Get serious about this – you are doing your kid a disservice by trying to make yourself feel okay about things.

 

Kari’s book, Mental Health Uncensored: 10 Foundations Every Parent Needs to Know and now Mental Health Uncensored: 10 Foundations Every Teen Needs to Know

The book for teens is a workbook so they can literally take that workbook and implement all of these foundations for themselves. Goal setting, friendships, staying hydrated - it's all in there. Both are available on Amazon – I’ll have the links in the show notes along with the links to connect with or reach out to Keri.

 

That’s it for Speaking of Teens today. As always, thank you for being here with me. I hope the show helps you at least a little bit, to parent your teens more confidently and that you feel less alone. If you’re brand new to the show, please go back and check out some of the older solo episodes – I covered a lot of basics in those earlier shows and please let your friends know you found the show and that they need to give it a listen!

You’ll find a link for our Parent Camp – a monthly membership – and our Facebook group as well as our socials at the bottom of the episode description where you’re listening.

Until next time, remember, a little change goes a long way.