Ann: The issue of school avoidance or school refusal (whatever you choose to call it) – it’s more prevalent now than ever before and if you have a teen, tween or child who won’t go to school, it’s a horrible predicament to be in as a parent.

On Friday, in episode 70, we aired the first 10 minutes or so of a conversation I recently had with Jayne Demsky, the founder of the school avoidance alliance and mother to a now grown son, who struggled with anxiety and school avoidance for many years.

Today, you’re going to hear the rest of that interview – and I’ll briefly summarize those first few minutes, but to really get the full picture of what Jayne’s family went through, you should scroll back to the previous episode and start there if you didn’t tune in on Friday.

This is Speaking of Teens, the podcast that helps parents who are struggling to find peace and connection with their teens. My name is Ann Coleman; I’m an attorney turned parent educator and a mom who has been there - and I’m on a mission to help you build a stronger relationship and decrease the conflict with your kid so you can help them grow into the young adult they’re meant to be.

So, to briefly summarize our previous conversation, Jayne started the school avoidance alliance in 2014 after having muddled through the issues with her son’s anxiety and school refusal for around 4 years. It was a scary, confusing, isolating experience. The school didn’t understand it, and there were roadblocks at every turn in getting him help and getting him back to school. And she wanted to make sure other families could find the information and the help they needed.

Luckily, after finding a very caring psychiatrist, and doing tons of her own research and wrangling with the school system, Jayne and her husband were finally able to get their son back to a new school for his last 2 years of high school - and he’s now graduated from college and living a happy and productive life.

As Jayne explained, school avoidance or refusal – it means the same thing – is not a mental health diagnosis in itself. It usually flows from anxiety disorders or depression. Kids may start out with anxiety, which leads to school refusal and then it turns into depression because of this feeling of inadequacy over not being able to make themselves got to school.  

And the research tells us that it’s generally not parents causing this issue – these kids don’t come from dysfunctional families - and it’s generally not their peers causing the issue – it’s most often school-related factors that are to blame.

And you’ll hear in my voice how this issue really hits home for me – I’m not a huge fan of how many schools are run…

Jayne: So I started school avoidance Alliance in around 2014 as a result of my child's school avoidance. My son went through it for many years. I would say he was struggling severely for four years. And when he went through it, it started when he was, I don't know, like 13. Maybe that was like 2009. No one really heard of school avoidance. I mean, they kind of really haven't now either, but.

Jayne: It's kind of in the stream of consciousness, the days, you know, post COVID, but back then no one had any fricking idea what it was and the schools had no idea how to handle it. So it was very isolating, scary and lonely. And in addition, the therapists, there are not enough good therapists out there. So, they didn't know how to handle it, or it took a long time to diagnose him, even though school avoidance is not a diagnosis, but to help him and.

The school didn't get it. And there were so many roadblocks and twists and turns that it was just horrible. We eventually did get Matt back to school. And, um, I am grateful every day because there were certain people along the way that I met who helped me and without them, it would have been different.

So like I had a psychologist, psychiatrist who defined it for me and was there. Back then he would text, he would text me. So to find a psychiatrist who texts you, that was just like, you know, how supportive is that? And that is some of the parents need these days. They need support and to know that someone is on their side.

Jayne: Cause without that, it's really scary. He helped me and figure out how to navigate. And I figured out how to navigate the school and get them to help. It took a long time and we eventually found the right school for him. He had to go out of, out of district, but he got back to school and he had his last two years.

That he enjoyed and he graduated high school, went on to college and he lives independently and has a life and makes a living. The greatest news is he has his own health insurance. Yay. That is the greatest gift. No kidding. From the universe. So yeah, so I started this in 2014 and what happened was when my son needed treatment, I don't know if you've heard of these, but there's a, uh, A job out there that's called educational consultant.

And those are people that specialized in helping families like ours who have kids who have issues and finding residential treatment center inpatient and also wilderness, which I personally don't believe in. And I didn't think that was right for my child, but 10, 000.

I don't know what it is now. Oh yeah. And so I was just like, when Matt, when Matt gets better, I'm just going to get, I'm going to find, um, I'm going to research all the programs around the country and give that information for free. So that's how I started. I just, then it took me a year to vet all these programs and find out who was worthy and could handle it. And specialized in school avoidance, and then I started giving it away and then it grew from there. That's how it started.

Ann: Wow. Well, and our stories are similar, you know, when your kid is in pain and you see that there's no remedy for it and that people don't understand it. It does make you want to go out and educate the world, doesn't it?

Jayne: It really does. And it's really, it's really scary. And especially if you can't talk to friends and family about it, which with school avoidance, it's people don't understand it. And I often say that like we have a friend and I would try to explain what was going on back in the day when my son was struggling and they would say, you know, you're too lenient and you're a pushover. Send that kid to my house and I will, I'll get him back to school. You know, send them to my house. So it really is so misunderstood. Yeah.

Ann: So people still don't get it. I mean, there's some, I mean, unless you've gone through it with a child, you don't get it, you don't see it. So you're just like, oh, well, they're just faking it or they're, they just want to play hooky or whatever.

Ann: What, what did you find? Like, well, first of all, I guess maybe we should define school avoidance and, or school, um, uh, not just avoidance, but what do they call it too? It's school refusal or school refusal.

Jayne: They're the same.

Ann: Okay. Yeah. All right. And, and so, I mean, all does it, is it like defined as so many days that they've tried to avoid it or anything like that?

Ann: How technical do you get?

Jayne: There is a technical definition and I think it's like 10%. Missing 10 percent of school in two weeks, but it really doesn't matter the technicality because you know, whether, you know, it meets those requirements or doesn't. So it's when a kid has severe emotional discomfort and distress about going to school. And what happens is what a parent might see is when they walk into their bedroom in the morning, the child might be crying, hiding under their covers. They might be tantruming. They might be holding on to their bedpost or door. I don't know if there's a bedpost anymore, but their bed, like, for dear life. Um, like, feeling like they're going to die.

You know, it's so scary. It's like... So out of the realm that you ever experienced to see your child, how fearful they are, it's, it's really distressful. And, um, it could stop, um, start a few days here and there, and then grow gradually, um, with my son, he did have signed early on that I missed. Um, so I will.

Jayne: Share that with you. So I really think that I'm a, uh, educated human being and I've been in therapy my life, my family. I know all about therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy and everything. I really believe in it and blah, blah, blah. So when my son started showing signs, I didn't know it was anxiety because anxiety really presents differently in kids.

Jayne: When he was like in first grade, he would start having tantrums, running around circles um, in the room because he couldn't do his homework. And like, he couldn't even like, articulate what was going on, but it was really scary. It was almost like... Does he have like, you know, multiple personalities? Yeah. What is it?

Jayne: It didn't seem right to me. Right. Until later, my aunt, who's a social worker, said, Hey, that's anxiety. And I'm like, well, why does, why don't they tell us that in any of the books? Exactly. Why is it sweaty palms and deep breathing? Right. And so it really presents in different ways. And so I didn't know it was anxiety until I found out.

Jayne: And then the doctors did, um, tell us that it was that. And, um, Um, what else was I saying about, um, tell me what my mom was saying. Well, so

Ann: let me ask you this. I mean, is it because my son had the same thing. He had anxiety. He had it from the time he was an infant. And so, Oh yes. Looking back. Yes. By the time he was two, when he could speak, he was, he was, I don't feel good.

Ann: I don't feel good. What's wrong, honey? Tummy throat, tummy throat. That's horrible. Oh, it was absolutely horrible. And we had no idea either. So. So, but then teenagers, you know, by the time in most of my, my listeners, you know, are parents of teens or tweens. And by the time they're this age, the anxiety a lot of times shows up as anger and, and you know, the anxiety is, is anger.

Ann: And my son would rage. He had absolute fits of rage. So rather than a, a little kid tantrum, now they're tantrums where they're, you know, Put fists through the walls and that kind of scary.

Jayne: I hear that from parents that we speak to that, that happens a lot.

Ann: Yes. And so is this, so is anxiety the only, I mean, so yeah.

Ann: So what are, what are the reasons for this? And is school avoidance, school avoidance, you said is not a diagnosis. So it's really just what a symptom of what's going on. Okay.

Jayne: So tell us about that. So common issues are, you know, general anxieties, disorder, social anxiety is a big one. Also depression. And, um, that is a big one, uh, for the research shows that almost 50 percent of kids with school avoidance have expressed this depression and or anxiety.

Jayne: And sometimes the anxiety will cause a depression and the school avoidance obviously will cause a depression because it's like they feel so inadequate. What's going on with me? Why can't I handle life? But also it can be having a learning difference that is undiagnosed because you. You feel like what the hell is wrong with me.

Jayne: Why can't I keep up with my peers? They don't get it I don't get it. What is wrong with me or a diagnosed learning difference? That is not handled correctly with the appropriate accommodations and modifications that are those are the main Reasons, but also obviously, you know, bullying we hear like, you know, the transitional grades are obviously the worst, you know, transitioning from elementary to middle and middle to high school.

Jayne: Yeah. Middle school just seems like a tornado of hell. Yeah. Um, you know, for school avoidance and every other everything else is

Ann: just hell period. Yeah, exactly.

Jayne: The schools have corroborated that with me. They say you have no idea. Yeah. But I do from seeing it on my end. Um. And so those are the main issues, but also like in a military kids often have it because again, the transitioning and moving from different school to school.

Jayne: But then the research also shows what's very interesting is most [00:21:00] people feel that school avoidance. It's caused by the parents, you know, the parents aren't doing something right. And then it's a problem at home. There's no research shows that it, um, these families aren’t dysfunctional. And also the research shows that actually school related factors are more prevalent In causing school avoidance than parental factors, so that really surprises people.

Jayne: And also same thing, peer related factors are much less as well.