Ann: “Parents cannot control how their kids turn out. Whether kids wind up earning a lot of money, developing depression, or summitting Mount Everest doesn’t reflect much on the competence of their caregivers. Expectations about how they should dress and talk; whether we push them toward advanced classes or after-school jobs; whether we allow them to go out with friends on school nights or attend parties—your opinion about these issues matters mostly to the extent that your adolescent cares what you think. Therefore, the most important work of parenting an adolescent is not controlling your child’s path, but rather creating a relationship of trust and mutual respect.”

That’s an excerpt from Dr. Emily Kline’s new book, The School of Hard Talks.

Ann: I’m Ann Coleman and this week on Speaking of Teens, I talk to Dr. Kline (Emily) about what she’s learned about parent/adolescent communication as both a practicing psychologist and an academic researcher. Listen in as we discuss the clinical technique, she believed could enhance family communication - and through her research, has discovered compelling evidence that she was correct.

Ann: Emily was an English major in college, which, she told me, was shorthand for “I have no idea what I want to do with myself.”

But while taking a little time off during her senior year to nurse a broken heart, she discovered her true calling.

Working as a file-clerk at a non-profit organization for a friend’s mom, literally set the course for the rest of her life.

The organization ran programs for adults with mental illnesses and Emily found herself drawn to the patients – so much that she started sticking around after work just to chat with them.

Her empathy and gift for connecting with these folks did not go unnoticed. The Director was so impressed, in fact, that she told Emily to finish her degree so she could come back and work for them.

So, she did. And she went on to get her masters and her PhD in clinical psychology, has worked in the field for more than 15 years and been involved in various aspects of mental health care and psychiatric research, including teaching at Harvard Medical school and now at Boston University School of Medicine.

Ann: Emily, thank you so much for being here today!

Emily: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad you were interested and you reached out.

Ann: All right, so let's talk about this. I know you, , you started out and you do, you still do research. So tell us about, , your research and using this School of Hard talks, which is also the title of your book, , using that in your research and how that led you to developing this f.

Emily: So I came to this from a bit of, , an odd way. I have been most of my career a specialist and serious mental illness. So treating people with, , mostly schizophrenia and bipolar disorder has kind of been my specialty as a psychologist. , and there's a big movement, , in the US right now to try and get people who are experiencing psychosis, , into treatment as quickly as possible and to include families in treatment.

Emily: And so this is kind of like what my career was shaping into. I was working, , in clinics that treated mostly teenagers and young adults because that's when these symptoms tend to first present. And, , I found that I really had a strong interest in working with the families and, , had a connection with the families.

Emily: And it's not for everyone, like the parent, as you can imagine. , when your kid is like, just got outta the hospital because they were hearing voices and you've never experienced anything like this, uh, you're freaked out. Right. So the parents are freaked out and, , a lot of the therapists can be a little, you know, overwhelmed or intimidated by that.

Emily: But, I found myself really drawn to it and, , I was working with these families. And, one thing in particular that would happen was, , sometimes these young people, they did not want treatment. And that happens a lot in psychosis. People don't have great insight into the fact that something is really different about them, and it's a psychiatric problem.

Emily: And, you know, there's, we have a lot of ambivalence about all kinds of psychological concerns. You know, people who are using substances don't always want help with that either. So it's not completely unique to psychosis, but the stakes feel really high when it's a young person who's experiencing that for the first time.

Emily: And there was one young man in particular who I'll just never forget. , he was assigned to me and he was in, he had not been attending his high school. He was really sick. , his parents knew exactly what was going on. , and a spot opened up at the clinic that I was working at, and he was supposed to see me and I saw him and he didn't really wanna talk to me.

Emily: and I think he came twice and then he didn't show up anymore. And then one week, you know, I still had a spot for him. He hadn't, I hadn't dropped him off my list yet. And the dad was sitting there in the waiting area instead of the, the boy. And I said, Hey, do, do you wanna come talk to me? And the dad said, yeah.

Emily: And he came into my office and he was just so sad, you know, I mean, he was just so, he was just, he just cried and I thought he would be mad at me or something. Like I felt guilty that I hadn't been able to help. His child, but he said, thank you for trying. And he was so nice and I felt so, so bad for him.

Emily: And there was others like him, you know? And so I thought about this and it was like, okay, if I had, we actually have a psychologist really, really great techniques for talking to people who are very ambivalent, right? And in particular there's this set of communication techniques called motivational interviewing that were developed by psychologists who were working with people who were, , using drugs and alcohol.

Emily: And this is a very well researched, well established technique. I use it all the time and it's so, so helpful for me in my practice. And so I had this idea, you know, could I teach parents how to do this? Because they're the ones who are really at home on that front line with these young people who are struggling so much.

Emily: , and. I applied for different, like research grants to do that. , and was able to get some, and then did a series of trials where I kind of developed this curriculum that was adapted from the typical motivational interviewing curriculum, which is used to train therapists. I adapted that for, you know, people with no clinical background, just people who were kind of struggling with their own family situations.

Emily: , and I had parents do the curriculum, give me feedback, and then my team and I would track like whether they were able to use the skills and how it impacted their stress level, their burnout, their amount of conflict they were having at home. , and it was just so fun. Like it was so successful. The parents loved it.

Emily: But one thing that a lot of parents said was, you know, I really could have used this like with my other kids.

Emily: Or this would've been very helpful 10 years ago. You know, when my kid was 12, not 22. Yeah. Like, why did I have to wait so long to learn these skills? These are just so helpful.

Emily: And so that's kind of where the book is coming from is, is getting out ahead of it and all the things that these parents told me, well, I wish I just knew this. Yeah.

Ann: Well, tell me, let's go back to motivational interviewing, just the, the basics of that and where did that come from and, and how does it work?

Ann: And then we can maybe talk more about how you've incorporated it into families.

Emily: Sure. So motivational interviewing, as I said, was, , developed in the 1980s by two psychologists, , Bill Miller and Steven Rollnick. And they were working with adults who were, , in treatment for alcohol and drug addiction. And a lot of these patients are highly ambivalent.

Emily: You know, on the one hand, , They may be court ordered to get treatment, or they may be experiencing consequences in their lives that they don't like from their drug use. , and on the other hand, they may not feel ready to stop using that substance. You know, people use drugs and alcohol for a reason.

Ann: Yeah.

Emily: Right?

Ann: Yep.

Emily: , you can't just make that go away by snapping your fingers. So, , you know, it's sort of in contrast to that, like sort of confrontational intervention. I'm gonna point out all the terrible things that are happening in your life and all the ways that you've disappointed your family.

Emily: , and kind of try and shame you into accepting treatment. They had a different vision and a different approach. , and they called it motivational interviewing. And the idea is that no matter what happens in my office, my session with someone is like 50 minutes long, right? And then they're gonna leave and they're gonna do whatever they wanna do. Period. And I can't control that. And they know that I can't control that. And so if a conversation is unpleasant enough, people will just Yes. Us. Right. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yep. Okay. And I think that's what's happening a lot on these, like intervention shows. There's a lot of pressure to just be like, okay, okay, I get it.

Emily: I'll take, I'll do whatever you want. I'll get help. Yeah. , but the motivation isn't really coming from within them. And so they might just leave the session with me and go back to doing whatever they were gonna do anyway. And then they might not even come back to see me again if I made them feel that bad.

Emily: So, in contrast to that, you know, we wanna help people to explore their own motivation for change and to try and decrease the defense that I think we all naturally have when somebody's like, Hey, you know, you're really kind of screwing up your life. Or even in a more mild situation, you know, people give us unsolicited advice, or tell us, Hey, you should do that differently.

Emily: I mean, I don't know about you, but I get defensive when my husband tells me to load the dishwasher differently. You know, and like, that's like a no stakes thing. Just I am not a professional dishwasher.

Ann: Yeah. Han nature.

Emily: But I still get mad.

Ann: Right. It's human nature.

Emily: It's human nature. Totally.

Emily: We get mad when people suggest that we change cuz we interpret it as criticism. And , so the idea is to really try and not be critical and create the space for people to really think about their own values and their own reasons for change and whether their behavior lines up with those values so that the motivation comes more from within.

Ann: What you said about motivational interviewing and the way that works, it makes so much sense for parents to actually use that with their kids so that they can bring out those values and, and to get kids to be more motivated internally. Is that what we're trying to do?

Emily: Right, exactly. Because we can't follow our kids around 24/7 and make sure that, you know, they're not gonna smoke weed, that they're gonna do their homework. And when we use like rewards and consequences, it can work, you know, and some kids actually are really receptive to that and it works well.

Emily: Those aren't the parents who come to see me. , yeah. The ones who come to see me have already tried that and it has escalated the conflicts right in their house and they feel like it's not working. Yeah. , it's turned into just one big power struggle after another.

Ann: I'd love for you to actually explain your, , your parenting styles, the four quadrants that you kind of took from, , the original parenting styles

Emily: Yeah, so in the book, , I made this diagram because it just helps me think of things visually sometimes.

Emily: , so in the 1960s, a psychologist named Diana Baumrind, , created this idea of parenting styles. , and she had kind of two axes. So one is, , warmth or responsiveness, and one is, , like structure and control. So, , that's a useful framework. And uh, but when she created it, she was really talking about sort of parenting styles of younger children.

Emily: So I kind of tweaked that a little bit for the families I see who are mostly like older teens and young adults. , and I think about the ax axis of, , sort of how much a parent is like accepting versus rejecting, and then how much a parent is, , involved versus. Sort of encouraging autonomy. And so like your parent who is super accepting and super involved, you know, that's kind of gets stereotyped as like the helicopter parent.

Ann: Yep.

Emily: Like, okay, like everything you want must be number one. And so let me like get involved and make sure that you get exactly what you want. Because like, you're perfect and I wanna make sure that you get everything you want. , so, you know, most of us don't wanna do that, uh, because we know that kids ultimately need to be able to solve their own problems.

Emily: , and also because we'll get made fun of, even though it's tempting, it's tempting. , and then on the opposite end, a parent who is not very accepting and is more rejecting but also expects a lot of autonomy might be that parent who like gets fed up and says, you know what? This is my house. It's my rules.

Emily: If you don't like it, you can leave. And that's kind of the parent who's like, just, just go, just get out.

Ann: The tough love.

Emily: The tough love. Mm-hmm. Yeah. A lot of the parents I see actually fall into this category that, , I call high expressed emotion, uh, which is kind of an old term from psychology, but I'm bringing it back.

Emily: Yeah. , and expressed emotion means very involved, but also kind of critical. Right? So it's like, oh, don't do that, do this, all the time. All the time. Oh, don't, you know, it really stresses me out when you do it that way. Or, oh, don't you think you need to take a shower before you go there?

Ann: I'm laughing because don't use this one.

Emily: Yeah, yeah. Oh, does it?

Ann: Oh my God, yes. That was me. And, and when I read that in your book about the, uh, highly expressed emotion, I thought, Lord, that is describing me to a t I mean, all the emotion and all the, the, uh, criticism, which you don't mean as criticism, but when you're maybe in Type A or you are maybe a little anxious or nervous about things and you feel like you need that control, is, is that where that's coming from?

Emily: Yeah. And in defensive parents, , if your kid is struggling with mental health or substance use, you have evidence that they are not making necessarily the best decisions.

So, of course you're anxious and of course you want to give them advice to make their life easier. , but they are still interpreting that as critical, you know, just because you mean well, and you have some evidence that they need help doesn't mean they like hearing it.

Emily: You know, it's just questioning somebody's judgment, right? I mean, it's one thing, okay, you threw your towel on the floor, please pick it up, right? Like, that's not necessarily super critical. It's just pointing something out that like, we don't, I would like you to do this, but when it comes to like the sort of questioning, oh, are you sure that you don't wanna, you know, call your friend, or don't you think that you should talk to your teacher about this assignment?

Emily: It's like, right. You're kind of demonstrating, I don't think you're gonna get this. On your own. And, and kids are sensitive to that.

Ann: Yeah. I see what you mean.

Emily: So the fourth quadrant then is like, okay, well, is there any kind of thing that's good? So, and that's, you know, the, the parent who really wants their kid to be autonomous and is okay with backing down, but who's also really accepting and I call that supportive. And, , by the way, I, I, I wrote this in the book, but I also just wanna say like, I don't think that we're all one type all the time. Because I can be very like supportive and cool and like, Hey, that's so cool that you wanna do basketball. I'm so excited to see you play. Right. Kind of hands off, but positive.

Emily: About one thing, but another thing, maybe it's like academics or maybe it's like my child's diet, or maybe it's like their relationship with a boyfriend or girlfriend where it really activates my anxiety.

Ann: Exactly.

Emily: And I get much more controlling.

Ann: So Emily, now, what is it about then the motivational interviewing? Let's go back to that. How does that work in parent adolescent communication?

Emily: Exactly. So adolescents are, you know, we're interacting with our kids throughout the day all the time, right? And there's so many opportunities to, you know, kind of zig or zag.

Emily: And sometimes parents come to me and they'll say, well, you know, I, I, I told my kid, I talked to them about doing homework or contributing to chores or whatever, and it went badly. And I'm always like, well, what exactly did you say? You know, because the devil's always in the details, , when it comes to this stuff.

Emily: So, you know, there's, we talk about using the basic skills of motivational interviewing, like not rushing to give advice and instead, , hanging back. Asking good questions and just reflective listening, reflecting what the other person is saying, , to, and then asking good questions that are more solution and problem solving oriented.

Emily: And then if we still need to give advice, right? , so those are kind of the steps and we talk about using those in just everyday situations. So, you know, that's the difference from therapy too, because when I see somebody in therapy, , I might kind of know what we're supposed to talk about. Like, you're in therapy because you smoke a lot of weed, and so I know we're supposed to talk about that.

Emily: Now my client might not agree and they might not wanna talk about it. But you know, with parents and kids, we talk about all kinds of things, right? So it's like catching your opportunities, , to use the skills. So an example, , that I have early on in the book is when, , A teenager is experiencing some cyber bullying.

Emily: , and she goes to her mom and her dad and her grandma. And, , none of them are really listening to her, you know, that she says, mom, I'm so stressed out. And the mom says, well, let me just make you a snack.

Emily: You know, I just wanna, I wanna make you feel better. The mom is like, just, just wants to fix it for her.

Emily: And the dad says, well, and, and then she goes, okay mom. And then she goes to her dad and says, dad, I get so down when I'm, when I'm looking at Instagram and the dad goes, well delete your app. You know, I don't like Instagram. Stop using it. You know, just like giving the advice. So that's another thing that we do as parents instead of listening is give advice.

Ann: Yep.

Emily: And then she goes to her grandma and her grandma. , you know, grandma, kids are being so mean to me and grandma says, oh, give them a chance. I'm sure they're really nice when you get to know them. So, you know, again, just kind of minimizing the issue, giving advice. , and then I show them kind of using the motivational interviewing skills to have kind of a redo.

Emily: And that's a theme throughout the book is I'll, I'll introduce some characters in a situation. , and a lot of the book is kind of written like a, like a screenplay or a script. Because I do think I wanted, you know, I, I love actually hearing how people interact and when I was doing the research I got tons of recordings.

Ann: Oh wow.

Emily: You know, so I could really listen.

Ann: Yeah.

Emily: , and I didn't record parents talking to their actual kids, cuz that felt really intrusive. , but I would record them talking to my research staff, doing these things called real plays so we can get into what that means in a minute. So then the girl comes back to her family and they're ready to use the skills, right.

Emily: So when she goes, mom, I'm so stressed. Instead of saying, here's a snack, mom says, what are you stressed about? Or, , you know, and, and it's such a small and seemingly obvious shift, right? But I think as parents, these opportunities just fly right over our heads all the time. To just ask the question and listen, instead of trying to fix the problem right away.

Emily: Or the dad, you know, oh dad, I'm so, uh, you know, when I look at social media, I get so down. He goes, oh. So, , you know, he could do a reflection in that situation. Like, oh, looking at Instagram is not making you feel good. And just see what she says next. Yeah. Just do that reflection and leave it. And usually if you do a good reflection, somebody keeps talking.

Emily: And I think especially those reflections are so useful when emotions are getting heightened. Or there's a power struggle that's getting set off. , because, you know, the way we use this in therapy is if somebody's like, well, I don't see the point in talking to you. You know, I have already lost if I start arguing. If I start listing my qualifications, I'm done. I'm cooked. This is why I'm going out. You trust me. Right. No, no, no, no. This is about, like you're saying, it's about the person's emotion and where they're at. It's really not about me at all. And so, you know, to use a reflection in that moment instead and say, you feel really hopeless. You don't think I'm gonna be able to help you with what you're going through. That's what they're really saying.

Ann: Right, right.

Emily: And to be able to recognize that and be really solid in myself to be able to just put the spotlight on the other person, what they're going through.

Ann: Yeah. I think that's the big thing is, is for parents especially, to realize, okay, this is not about me or my comfort level about what they're saying to me. I don't need to shut that emotion down. I don't need to shut them up and make them go away, or, you know, delete the app, you know, make 'em a snack. You know, we need to give them more space to express how they're feeling. And figure it out.

Emily: Right. Figure it out. Yeah. And they, they will, you know, like there's no way that they won't, , you know, some kids have a tendency to just like talk and talk and talk and kind of over focus on the thing that's bothering them, and for those kids, you know, we might want to move them along a little bit after listening - toward problem solving. But for the most part, people move in that direction on their own if we give them space to.

Ann: Right. Just, just listen, reflect, keep listening and reflecting. And eventually maybe they will figure it out for themselves without us telling them, here's how to solve the problem.

Emily: Right. Because if we do great reflections and you ask questions, especially questions that get people in the mind of problem solving, like, well, what have you already tried? Or, what do you think you might wanna do next? Or like, you know, how, how do other people manage this situation? , They're gonna come up with good ideas or maybe bad ideas, but they'll start thinking

Emily: about sort of, how do I wanna handle this, , without me necessarily needing to give a lot of advice. And in fact, the advice that I give is probably not as good as what they can come up with themselves.

Ann: Yeah.

Emily: Because I don't really know, you know, I'm not 16, I don't know what's going on hard in your school, in your friend group, right?

Ann: Yeah. And you have to really, you have to step back and, and remember that it is so hard for some of us to even think about what we can say rather than problem solve or give advice. For me, it is so hard for me not to automatically go there. Well, why don't you do this? Or, well, if you just do this - it's hard for me to, to even stop and think, what do I literally say instead of that?

Ann: And so, having examples like that, tell me what you have tried, or whatever. That's so good. It's, just turning it around a little bit, but it's not us telling them what to do. So, I love that

Ann: I know in your book you talked a little bit about, , hard power and soft power. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Emily: Sure. So, you know, I'm not a political scientist or anything like that, but those terms are ones that I borrowed from the way people think about like politics and diplomacy.

Emily: You know, hard power is. I can force you to do something or I can create the conditions that make it really hard for you not to do something right. So hard power is like, I'm stronger than you. I could make you physically do something, or I can give you money or withhold money or withhold resources or provide resources if you do or do not do the thing I want you to do.

So that's hard power. Soft power is getting people to want to do what you want them to do. Right. And my understanding of like politics is soft power is like America loves to use soft power, right? That's why we invite so many foreign students to study at our universities or, , you know, hosting the Olympics, it's like, or having people love to watch, you know, Angelina Jolie in a movie.

It's like there's something about sort of American culture and American values, , that gets disseminated through those things. And so obviously it's not the same in a family, but, , there you can think about hard power and soft power with your kids, right? So, I can, I can physically pick up my daughter and put her in the bathtub, but because she's four, right?

Ann: Because she's four,

Emily: she's 30 pounds. Yeah, exactly. I can do it. , perfect. But even with a four year old, like, it's messy, right? Like, she is gonna be screaming, she is gonna be mad at me, she's kicking, I'm getting all wet. Like it's an ugly scene. , and I would rather not use hard power. I'd rather be. Hey, like, it's Wednesday, let's take a bath and do bubbles. Let's make it fun and cool. And then we will still have time to watch and concho for the thousandth time. And that's soft power, right? It's getting her to want what I want, , by creating like some positive vibes. So that's just an example with a little kid. With a teenager. It might more look more like, I'm gonna drug test you every week and if I find out that you are using marijuana, , you don't get the car keys or you're grounded, you don't get to leave the house. , versus listen, I really don't want you using marijuana. , and I hope you value our relationship, and my opinion enough that like you will respect that.

Emily: Yeah. That's pretty, it's pretty idealistic. , but ultimately if a kid really, you know, I see a lot of kids who in my clinic, , who don't wanna be there and you say, well, why are you here? And they say, well, cuz my mom wants me to. So they do value their relationships with their parents. , even though it might look like they don’t.

Ann: Well, how, okay, that, and that's another good point. How is it that with, with some kids, we do have that relationship where they value our opinions and they, they gravitate more towards what we want them to do. And then other kids are the ones who say, well, I don't care what you say, or I don't care what you want me to do, I'm not gonna do it. What is the difference? Is, is there a difference in. Obviously there's a difference in the relationship. What is that difference in the relationship and does it have anything to do with the type of power exerted by the parent?

Emily: I think a lot of that comes down to differences in personality and temperament. And I don't want parents to blame themselves for having a kid who is naturally a little more skeptical, a little more defiant, , a little less oriented around adult approval. And if you have more than one child, chances are they're different on that characteristic, right? You might have one kid who's just more naturally afraid of having disapproval or getting in trouble, another kid who does not care, right?

Emily: And so I just think that's something that parents take too much to heart mm-hmm. As a reflection of them or their parenting and beat themselves up about Yeah. And I just, I don't, I don't like that, I don't want that for people. Right. I don't think it's productive and I don't even think it's accurate.

Emily: Yeah. Like, I think a lot of this is temperamental, so, okay. So now you've got a kid who, that's just the way God made them.

Emily: They don't care what you think. Mm-hmm. , , you know, how do you get them to at least consider, you know, your advice? So some of it is that you have to, I wanna say two different points here. So one is that it might not matter what you think, if, if they have their own values and goals, we can work with that. So in my book, I give an example, , about a boy who's in high school and he has type one diabetes. And this is really tough for families who are managing this because, , it's really serious illness.

Emily: And it's really complicated to manage. , but kids have to start kind of doing it for themselves as they grow up. Now he's not doing a great job, and the mom is like, you could go blind. You could get in the hospital, you could lose a kidney. , and he's just not hearing that. But then she says to him, well, what's most important to you?

Emily: And to him, it's like, he wants to be on the rowing team. He wants to fit in with his friends, and he doesn't wanna have to leave class and go home sick all the time. Yeah. Okay. Well we can work with that. Yeah. Right. Those are great values. That's great motivation to manage his illness properly. And it kind of doesn't matter that mom's motivation is more around these health outcomes.

Ann: Right.

Because ultimately the behaviors that we're looking for are the same.

Ann: Right. Right.

So that's one point is that, you know, we can recognize that kids might have a different motivation than we have and it's still okay. We just have to figure, figure out how it's, they don't have to buy into our vision.

Ann: Yeah. So figuring out what that inner motivation is what's important.

Emily: Right. Right. And just asking like, okay, so you don't share my concern, what's important to you here? Or like, what am I missing? You know, can hopefully get them talking about that. , you know, another very simple example would be like cleaning your room. Right? Like, I want your room to be clean because I don't like having a messy room in my house. I think it's gross and I'm worried that we're gonna get mice. , but my kid is only motivated to clean when they have a friend coming over. Or in particular, maybe like a certain boy or girl mm-hmm. That might be seeing their room that they wanna. Okay, let's invite them over. Like, I don't care. Wants to, how we get regularly how we can get them.

Ann: Yeah. Yes. That makes sense. That makes total sense.

Emily: , , so that's one thing, but another thing is just about relationship, which is what you asked about.

Ann: Yeah.

Emily: And I think that, , you know, so much of the time, the families that I see are in what I call relationship deficit, like they have a, a, a debit account that is so overdrawn

Ann: Yes.

Emily: , that, you know, because they, all of their interactions are so negative.

Ann: Yep. Right.

Emily: Basically all of the interactions are the parents saying, you need to do this. And the kid being like, I don't care what you think.

Ann: Right.

Emily: You know, and for those families, I just talk to the parents about like, you are overdrawn and we need to get your balance at least back to zero. And the way that you do that is just through quality time. And that might look like going into your kids' room and being like, show me a funny TikTok video or what, I'm going grocery shopping today. What cereal do you want me to get? Just these little things that can help reverse that, that, that deficit, , and bring the relationship back into a little bit of balance.

Ann: Yeah. I call that micro engagement, those little bitty things that you can do. And the, the TikTok videos are huge on the list. They're music, all those things. So what you're saying is that the more, , we need to balance out the negative and the positive, we need to have more positive interactions with our kids than the negative Interactions.

Emily: Right, because there's gonna be a withdrawal, you know, just to use that metaphor, right?

Ann: Yeah.

Emily: Like, that is inevitable. I am gonna be like, a parent is gonna be like, no, you're not allowed to go to that party. Or like, no, I won't buy you that thing that you want. Or you do need to do the dishes. I'm not letting that one go. Right? And so these are things that like deduct from the account. So, we have to also be thinking about for these kids who are less again, and some kids are just like a lot easier.

Emily: , and if you have a bunch of them, good for you, right? Yeah. Like, good for you. But just know that like it's the rest. Maybe you're the greatest parent in the world, maybe you're not like, I don't know. , but you know, for a lot of kids, there's, you gotta be intentional about trying to, to have those micro engagements as you said to kind of, , counterbalance. For the negative stuff that is always, always going to, always gonna be there.

Emily: Just part of parenting a teenager. Yeah.

Ann: And so the, getting back to that, that power, that hard power, soft power thing. The hard power is, is generally not gonna work with any of them, right?

Emily: I mean, certain kids you say, oh, you're not allowed to do this. Or you're grounded. Yeah, they'll do it. They'll comply.

Emily: Right? They will, but other kids won't. And so, you know, your kid, you know, , I don't know your kid. You know your kid. Yeah. And if you've tried that stuff and it hasn't worked or it's worked, but it's deteriorated the relationship to the point where like nobody's even talking and. Yeah. Just negative stuff is, is going on. Then it, it might be time to try something new or you might think that it works, but really your kid is just sneaky and smarter than you.

Ann: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that might be more the case. You, but No, I agree with you. I mean, I have seen kids that I was that way. I mean, I complied. I didn't do, I did nothing wrong for the longest time, but, you know, my kid was exactly the opposite.

Ann: You know what I said didn't go. And we butted heads constantly. And the more we butted heads, the more controlling I tried to be and the more rebellious he got. So that's, that's that spiral I think that a lot of parents find themselves in and don't know how to back up from.

Emily: Well, I, I think we get into a situation where we feel like there's a lot of eyes on us.

Ann: Yeah.

Emily: And we have to make a big show of being like a disciplinarian.

Ann: Oh. So right. You're so right. Yep. I did that from day one. Especially, I think that's true with little kids, you know, the, when they're acting out in the grocery store or doing something like that and you feel like all eyes are on you and you have to do something, but it doesn't get any better the older they get.

Emily: Yeah. Oh, and I think, you know, it's very cultural. , and I think, you know, people have very different expectations about how one manages like a wayward teenager, right?

Ann: Yeah

Emily: And so, , but if you're getting a call from the school, there can be a lot of pressure to like, I don't know, sort of make a big show of how you are taking it seriously and you are reacting. , and I'm not saying you shouldn't take it seriously, but I'm just questioning, you know, does taking the phone away get you where you need to be? Right. Or is it more you're just doing that because. You feel like people expect you to and you honestly don't really have any other strategies. And I've got to do something.

Ann: Well, and, and let's talk about that a minute. The, , taking the phone away. That's so funny because, you know, that is the thing that everybody reaches for first is that phone. You know, what else can I do? Because that's where it hurts. But, , let, let's talk about that some, the consequences aspect of this.

Ann: , I don't even know if you get into that in the book, but, , let's talk about that a little bit. What, what's your opinion about consequences and how they should be applied or if they should be applied?

Emily: Okay, great question. This is a, it's a big one. So, , you know, first of all, I just always am a take a stance of a lifelong learner. And I, I never know what's going on with every single family. So, if somebody's using that and it's working for them all power to you. Yeah. Right. Great. , I'm always talking to the people who are looking for something new. , so, you know, I think that consequences erode the potential for partnership.

Emily: You know, because it's really a power move. It's hard power.

Emily: Like we were talking about. So it's saying, I'm more powerful than you. I'm bigger than you. I'm stronger than you. , and I can do this to you. I can inflict pain. Whether it's, you know, physical pain or with the phone away, it's social pain.

Ann: Right.

Emily: You can't talk to your friends. , I can do this and you will suffer. If you don't do what I want, , that I write in the book about how in order to really be able to use your whole brain and consider like a healthier change. People need to feel understood, confident, and in control. And not just teenagers, really anybody, you know, cuz we all get defensive.

And so, you know, consequences like taking away the phone, it can work to like get some compliance, but it doesn't help with kind of that understood, confident and control goal, right? Because ultimately, , it's the opposite of feeling in control. It's my mom's in control, I'm not in control, I'm weak, I'm not confident. , so it doesn't always lead to great decision making and that should really be the goal of any kind of discipline is, is better choices. Not like, I've demonstrated my strength and power and power over you.

Ann: So, so it's more about helping our teen to feel confident in their ability to have control over themselves, is that what you're saying?

Emily: Yeah, I think so. And also like, you know, teens are smart and they are sneaky, and like, if you think that your consequences are working, they might be, but also like, like we were just saying, your, your teen might just be really good, be becoming more secretive, right?

Ann: Yep. So what's the alternative, do you feel like with consequences? Is it again, we're talking about that inner motivation and trying to strike that balance with what their values are?

Emily: I think so. Right. So, I think it depends on like what your values are and what the conflict is. But say that, you know, let's, I like to be concrete cuz my brain just gets confused when we're just talking in abstractions.

Emily: Yeah. So let's give a scenario, , where you might be thinking, oh, I'm gonna take the phone, but it's not working that well. So, , do, can you think of one?

Ann: Oh yeah. , the, well with my son smoking weed, I mean, that was one thing, you know, you come home smelling like weed and I'm taking your phone. Mm-hmm. So instead of that,

Emily: So, , I would probably say you smell like weed. See what he says. Is he gonna deny it? Yeah. Is he gonna acknowledge it? , you know, maybe he says something like, oh no, it was just my friends. I just smell like weed because Yeah, it's, they were, I was in the car. And they were, somebody in the backseat was smoking.

Emily: Okay. So you weren't doing anything wrong? Okay. What, you know, what, what are you gonna do next time if somebody starts smoking weed around you? , I don't know. I didn't do anything. I'll just not do anything again. Okay. All right. Can I share my perspective on this? Yeah. Whatever. I given your history, I have a hard time believing you that you weren't smoking, but I'm gonna try and give you the benefit of the doubt, and I know how hard you've been working to stay away from it.

Emily: I would really, really like you to try not to get rides from people who are smoking weed also, because that's dangerous and I worry about you getting into a car accident. I can put some money in an Uber app for you. Would you like. Okay, great. All right, let's do that. Right then it's like, it's just me acknowledging like, I don't have control over this.

Ann: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily: This is not my thing to control whether I take your phone or not still, I don't know that that's gonna impact your decision making.

Ann: Right. They can still smoke weed with or without a phone. They can still do all the things with or without a phone. .

Emily: Right. And in fact, without a phone, they can't use Uber.

Emily: Yeah. To get a ride if

Ann: somebody's happy. Yeah, exactly. You know, and that's, I think parents, we have a hard, hard time with that of saying, okay, we're not gonna do anything about it, so what's gonna stop it, stop them from doing it in the future because we want to control that. We want to be able to stop that in the future.

Ann: , so it's, you know, all out war at that point, you know, taking away this, keep taking away the keys, keeping them at home, but to what you're saying, Is so right. I mean, we can do all the things. We can show our power in a million different ways, but in the end, they will still end up doing what they ultimately want to do because of their own inner motivation.

Emily: Right. And but a big part of their owner motivation can also be relationship. With us. Okay. Right. So think about how this kid in this scenario is feeling at the end of one conversation versus the other. Mm-hmm. In the one mom is the enemy. Right. I take the phone. Okay. Mom's the enemy in the other mom is just worried about my safety.

Emily: I think she's overreacting, but she's being really nice about it. Ugh. Right. It's like maybe I should just give mom a break and not, and think about it. Get in a car next time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ann: Well, and and that's what it boils down to really then is our relationship with our kid is what ultimately gives us that influence with their behavior.

Emily: Exactly. Exactly.

Ann: That's a, that's a really hard truth to come by when you're in the middle of it and you're, you're trying everything you can to get them to do better. It's so hard to realize that pulling back is the better option than just putting the brakes on harder and harder.

Emily: Right. Well, and putting the brakes on, I mean, that is a metaphor that suggests that you're doing something to stop the behavior when what you're really doing is. Probably just unrelated, like taking the phone. Yeah. You know, like how is that, like you're saying it's not really that related to the behavior. He can still smoke weed with or without a phone.

Ann: Yeah. Yeah. So, so for consequences to actually be effective then, and are you saying that they they could be effective if it was something that was directly related?

Ann: Like what people talk about logical consequences. So directly related. Totally. , so should we try to do something else first before we use the consequences, do you think? Or should we immediately go for consequences? What's, what's your philosophy about this whole thing?

Emily: Oh, it's, again, I find it really hard to be abstract.

Emily: Yeah. I like to think about specific people and specific families and specific scenarios because, , I do think that. You know, I, that people, kids just really are different. And again, some kids they like having that guardrail and it's like, oh, my mom's gonna kill me if I do this. And that actually is an effective deterrent for some kids.

Emily: Mm-hmm. And for other kids, it's like, that's so meaningless. Yes. You know, like, they don't care. My mom's gonna kill me. Fact, it's kind of a tempt. Yes. Right. It's a temptation. Like, oh, let's see what happens.

Ann: Yeah. So let me see how well I can hide this so she won't find out and won't kill me.

Emily: right, right.

Emily: But I do think that, you know, you can, the natural consequences make sense. Like if you are giving your kid an allowance and they're spending that money on drugs, like, I probably would stop giving that allowance. Right. And not in a way that's like, you're not getting it this week because you smoked weed last week.

But in a way that's just like, I don't think this is a good thing that's helping you make good choices. Like, I'm gonna put money on an Uber app in case you need a ride, or I'm gonna, you know, give you a gift certificate to the movies if that's what you wanna do with your friends. But like, I'm not giving you cash.

Ann: So Emily, the, the motivational interviewing that we talked about and using it with our kids, I know, , we're talking about adolescents, but would you be able to use this with all kids, like any age?

Emily: , so I'm a little bit, , that, you know, there's all this really interesting writing and I'm on social media and I see lots of stuff about like, gentle parenting with little kids, and I think there's some things in common there. , but you know, I little kids aren't great at like identifying like values and goals and things like that.

Emily: Like, you can't, you can't ask them what's really important to, to them. So I do think there's like a lower. Age cutoff, but I'm not sure there's any upper age cutoff. You know, and in fact, my husband and I kind of do this with each other. Hmm. In a way, you know, we've gotten really good at like not jping in to solve each other's problems and just kind of asking questions or doing reflections or commenting like, oh, well, you know, it seems like the most important thing to you is this and highlighting those values.

Emily: , and it's really nice, like it's just a nice way to communicate. And actually I'm getting some interest as I talk about this stuff from people who are interested in that other big role transition in family life where communication can really fall apart, which is when we have to take over from our parents as they get older. , and this is not my area of expertise at all. So, it's like so interesting to me that several different people have kind of reached out to me about this. Like, don't you think this could be useful for people who are, you know, having those difficult conversations with their parents?

Like, should you really be driving or don't you think you might wanna move soon? Oh my gosh. Into someplace that's easier to manage. Yeah. So that is kind of like something that has really sparked my curiosity as I've started, as I've been out there kind of spreading this message about parents and teens, I'm getting feedback from people in the community about parents and their parents.

Ann: That is really interesting because I actually, my husband and I are living with my 88-year-old mother and it's so interesting that you mentioned that. You know, don't you think it's time for you to stop driving? I mean, we literally. Keep her car keys hidden or we make sure that the battery doesn't work or you know, whatever we can do.

Ann: Because we can't just say, you can't drive, you're gonna kill somebody. She can't hear, how do you hear if the ambulance is coming up behind you? So yeah, I think that absolutely could work with Yeah. Between, , you know, kids my age and their older adult parents, especially as they get older and older.

That's fascinating. Yeah. I think you should do some little research on that. Come, come up with another book for us, because we are the sandwich, , generation as they say. I've got a 22-year-old and an 88 year old that I'm parenting, basically.

Emily: Yeah. It's so, it's so interesting to think about the overlap in those dilemmas. It really is like, you know, you can't control this person. Yeah. And you want them to make good decisions. And it's really tough.

Ann: It's definitely because my husband constantly tells me, because I get very frustrated about it, he's like, honey, you just have to remind yourself that it's like dealing with a child.

You're dealing with a child. So, use, you know, all those techniques you tell people about, use those same techniques and that's true. It does make sense.

Ann: So Emily, thank you so much for being here today. This was wonderful. I think it's wonderful information.

Emily: Yeah. Thank you. I'm so glad we met and I've been really enjoying listening to, , to all your episodes.

Ann: Oh, thank you.

You can find Emily’s book, The School of Hard Talks, How to Have Real Conversations with Your (Almost Grown) Kids almost anywhere you buy books and I’ll have a link right there in the app where you’re listening and on the show notes page at neurogility.com/46.

You can also find The School of Hard Talks Online – the free interactive course for parents to help you learn this motivational interviewing technique – again the link is right there where your listening and in the show notes.

You can find Dr. Emily Kline at d r emily kline (with a k) .com where you can contact her about speaking, supervision and consultations and to help you teach the School of Hard Talks to your organization.

My thanks, again, to Dr. Kline.

If you found this episode helpful, please share it with a huge group of friends. I’ll be back here next Tuesday with more. In the meantime, find a way to share a laugh with your teen!

Speaking of Teens is sponsored by neurogility.com, produced and edited by Steve Coleman, cover art by Ann Coleman, music by – I don’t know, we bought it online somewhere…