Ann Coleman

When your kid is struggling, it’s almost all you think about. I know that all too well. You just want them to feel okay, to change their behavior…you worry about their future, and you wonder if things will ever get better.

Well, today’s guest is proof that it can get better. Hayley Caddes is the co-founder of Not Therapy coaching, along with my guest of episode 168, Colin MacDonald.

She, like Colin, struggled significantly with her mental health and with substances when she was a teen. Also, like Colin, she ended up in treatment – a Wilderness program – and therapeutic boarding school.

She and her parents went through hell.

Thankfully, Hayley got better, she went on to college – Columbia to be exact – and earned a bachelors and a master’s in chemical engineering. She’s had a successful career in STEM and even launched a mental health platform a while ago, backed with over $2 million dollars in venture capital. Yeah – amazing, right?

So, you see, there’s SO much hope.

In today’s episode Hayley and I discuss where she was as a teenager, what it’s like for a young person coming out of treatment, the mindset shift you need to make and the actions you need to take to help them be successful when they finish whatever treatment they do. And stick around because she even talks about what to do if they actually use a substance again – very eye-opening stuff.

PODCAST INTRO

I asked Hayley to start off telling me her back-story…how she ended up a “troubled teen” as she puts it.

Hayley Caddes

So for me, I grew up in, mostly in Utah and then a little bit in the Bay area of California. And growing up, I mean, I was an oldest child, I only daughter of three kids. And I was always like independent, happy child, like didn't really feel like I had many issues, so to speak, when I was younger. I think one of the main things that has really shaped me as a person, especially when I was really young, was the fact I grew up in a very religious area without any, like, we are not religious. Like, we're not, you know, we're not, like, anti-religion, but we didn't grow up going to church. My mom worked at a ski resort growing up, so we'd ski, like, every Saturday and Sunday. Like, that's what we did with our weekends.

And so, you know, growing up around a lot of Mormons and going to a private school where there are a lot of Mormons there and just like showing up first day of first grade, being like new at school and having other kids be like, hi, like, are you Mormon? And I had like never heard of that word. So I was like, yeah, sure. Like I guess. And so, and they were like, you're not Mormon.

Like this for some, I honestly, honestly, knowing me, maybe I fully like made up that memory, but for some reason that memory is like so seared into my brain as like, my God, like I'm different. There's something, maybe there's something wrong with me. Like I took it as, I can't be friends with these people or they don't want to be friends with me. You know, I don't think anyone was actually like openly mean or exclusionary, but, but you know, it's weird, like, especially being the oldest and also being a girl, like in that culture.

 

Hayley Caddes

feeling like there were a lot of values and ways of acting that were pushed on to me, not by my parents at all. They don't really share a lot of those values, but it just felt very confusing. And I was like, I want to fit in, but I also don't agree with, I don't want to go to church every Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. I don't want to be a good little girl in how they're saying it.

You know, they had all these rules around dating, all this stuff. I tried to like date a Mormon one time later in high school and like his mom made him break up with me and like all this stuff that in hindsight, I'm like, it's kind of funny, but like it really deeply impacted me. I was very sensitive. like kind of always just ended up having a chip on my shoulder. I'm different than everyone. And you know, my younger brother was really sick also growing up.

He was in the hospital for months, had an autoimmune disorder. He's okay now, but it was just at a young age. I was like, okay, I have to just take care of myself. My emotions, my parents were going through a lot, so no fault of their own, but I was like, my emotions are, I just need to take care of them. And by that, mean suppress them. And that just then set me up for being a teenager, puberty, all that stuff. That's when I really, started feeling depressed, didn't know what that was. I felt like I was going crazy. So I think like one thing I can just say, I say a lot to parents that we work with and I can get into what we do in a minute. Maybe I should have started with that, but yeah, parents that we work with is like, I mean,

A lot of times, like, your kid also feels, like, just as crazy and just as frustrated as maybe you are, like, with themselves. Not all the time, but, for me, it really... I was like, I don't want to be acting this way. Like, I don't want to feel bad all the time. And I didn't really understand why. Like, not all that much had changed, I guess, in my life when I started feeling depressed and anxious and all those things.

Also, guess, undiagnosed ADHD until I was like 22. So I got through like most of my schooling without that diagnosis. anyway, yeah, so that ended up, you know, because I wasn't really telling my parents about anything, again, not because they would have been mad, like in hindsight, I just was so used to not. I tried to deal with it myself and make myself feel better. All I really knew was kind of I spiraled into behaviors such as drug and alcohol abuse. I got like, I had a lot of suicidal ideation, self harm. I mean, really, like I don't necessarily identify as like very strongly with one particular behavior or another, but just anything to kind of numb the pain really. And obviously a lot of those things they you know, compound on each other and kind of make everything worse. And I just didn't understand what was going on and was doing a lot of like, I guess we called it ecstasy at the time, but now it's called Molly or whatever. And didn't understand that that like is depleting all of your like dopamine receptors constantly making you more depressed. Like, you know, I clearly didn't listen to the DARE presentation. So, no, so like, yeah.

Ann Coleman

God, I don't think many people did. Let me ask you, when you started doing all this, mean, because I heard you say, really, you went to school with mostly very religious people. were there just, how did you find people to do this with? Were there plenty of people to do this with? I mean, it's just confusing.

Hayley Caddes

Mm-hmm.Not really at my school. So I started finding them kind of like in my neighborhood. Like, and also, because I was now a teenager, I could kind of like date people in my neighborhood, honestly, without my parents knowing. But we were in like nice suburbs, you know, it wasn't like we're, it was it really wasn't that easy to get, quite honestly. And I think that's why I was doing or I smoking weed and like doing other drugs more so than drinking. I didn't really drink actually all that much when I was a teenager. So it was just harder to get, but it just,

 

Ann Coleman

Yeah, yeah. And your parents had no idea?

Did they have any idea that it was going on?

 

Hayley Caddes

Not really for a while. No, because I'm very, I maintained straight A's like the whole time. Cause in my mind, I was like, if I can kind of just do the things that outwardly look good. And I've always been very motivated by external validation and school awards, all this stuff, which I've had to go through many cycles of struggling with in my adult life. you know, so I just maintained a really good outward image for a few years. And then it just got to the point I was in so much pain, I ended up kind of telling my parents some things.

We ended up moving to California right before the start of my junior year of high school, which then that got rid of all kind of of my quote unquote coping tools at the time. Like didn't have any friends there. Middle of high school, going to a public school with Californians who I felt like I fit in with more, quite honestly, but like it was kind of a culture shock, quite frankly. And then because this was only like my space era.

 

Hayley Caddes

We didn't have all the social media as much. yeah, and so then I started, the main thing was then I started running away from home, which like that's when my parents and my parents had had, like my cousin was sent away and went to wilderness before I had been. My mom had a good friend whose daughter, they went through the whole process of sending you to wilderness and therapeutic boarding school. So they were like kind of familiar with it at least. so that's when they were like, we can't keep you safe anymore. And we can't really parent you anymore. That was when they were like, we need to send you away, which I like ultimately agreed with. And in a way, it was kind of relieving when I got there because I it was four days before Christmas, you know, taken from my home going, you know, to back to Utah, funny enough, southern Utah in the high desert, so it was snowing and, so yeah there is honestly like, I look back at that experience whenever I'm going through something hard, especially if it's more short-term. I'm like, I did the snow, like sleeping in the snow for three months so we can get through this.

 

Ann Coleman

I can do that, I know, have a similar thing in my head that I say. So let me back up just a minute to the running away. So do you remember, like can you remember back then what was going through your mind and why you wanted to just flee and just get out of there? Was it something between you and your parents or was it just that feeling of I've got to get away from everything?

 

Hayley Caddes

It was more I've got to get away from everything. I did feel like my parents didn't really understand me, but I honestly, if you had asked me day of going to wilderness, I'd be like, my parents and I have a pretty good relationship. There wasn't a ton of conflict. I'm also very conflict avoidant. So there wasn't a ton of conflict in the home either.

At least between, say like my brother would argue more with my parents than I'd argue with them. So, you know, it was, it was, I internalized a lot, a lot of things. Yeah.

 

Ann Coleman

Right, right. So you were just trying to get away, just escape any way you could. So did they send you to the wilderness? Did they send you involuntarily then? Okay.

 

Hayley Caddes

Yeah. Yeah, so that was like, know, I don't know how many parents listening to this are like have sent their kids away or considering it or whatever. Yeah, I'd say like that part of just my experience was the only kind of like, quote unquote, truly really traumatic part of it, mainly also because my family was involved and like my younger brothers were there and my parents are there. That was also much more I honestly probably willingly would have gone because it felt, like to me, was like, that's kind of an escape. don't have to go to school can like kind of pause things, whatever.

 

Ann Coleman

Yeah. But they didn't ask you about going voluntarily.

 

Hayley Caddes

Like, but no, that was like more standard of like, your daughter's running away. You probably have to goon her as we called it. It's yeah.

 

Ann Coleman

Goon. Yep. That's what I've. So just, just to explain, I'll explain real quick to the, to the listeners. mean, if you're, if your child will not cooperate or you don't think they're going to cooperate and sending them to wilderness or therapeutic boarding, well, usually you're going to send them straight to residential or whatever. You can have someone come in in the middle of the night or early, early morning and literally take them and deliver them to the place. And we did that as well.

And when you, as a parent, when you are in that desperate spot and you don't believe your child will cooperate, especially, you we knew we couldn't get our kid on a plane and get him all the way from South Carolina to California. So yeah, we had someone come in and that, Haley, just, it just hurts me so to hear you say that that was the, you know, the trauma of it all. That was the, and I know, I mean, of course it's traumatic. Of course it is.

 

Hayley Caddes

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

 

Ann Coleman

And you know, do you, I still worry about that today with my son's 23 and I still worry about that. I'm like, my God. I mean, because he already had some trauma and then I did that to him. But you know, when you're backed into a corner and you don't know what to do, I mean, sometimes it calls for desperate measure. tell me just a little bit about that. mean, do you, does it still create problems for you? I mean, do you have like literally flashbacks and things like that or? How do you feel about it now?

 

Hayley Caddes

I didn't really part of that was because I think I was just so kind of numb as well at that point. So I kind of just like blocked it out immediately. I blocked out like a lot. It took me a while to even remember the things I was doing when I was running away from home, like, you know, months and in some cases years like so I was very used to dissociating like at that point from things that were happening and so in that way, I guess that was kind of good. But like, I will say that also, especially then and now, like I would say maybe, I don't know, a third or maybe even half of the young people we work with have also been, now it's called being transported. It was actually probably called it back then. But yeah, yeah, that's true.

 

Ann Coleman

Yeah, the kids still call it gooning. I know that.

 

Hayley Caddes

They do it way differently now. Like now it's not supposedly not so it's not supposed to be like feeling like you're getting kidnapped in the middle of the night.

 

Ann Coleman

Well, good.

 

Hayley Caddes

Like they're supposed to sit you down and tell you where you're going with your parents and all this stuff. So like in that case that, you I think that gets rid of a lot of the maybe like traumatic memory part of it. I will say when I like watched 10 years after that happening, will Paris Hilton came out with her documentary about, I don't know if you're familiar or but.

 

Ann Coleman

I can't watch them. I just can't. Makes me feel too guilty.

 

Hayley Caddes

Yeah, no, and it's like, and it's a lot about like just her life and stuff. But then the kind of thesis ended up being, you know, this, was really traumatized by going to these programs. Again, she also went like 15 years before I even went. So it's changed a lot, but her whole thing, like they, she like described, like she had nightmares and stuff and they had kind of these almost like animations, like replaying it of what happened and I was like, shit, it did kind of feel like that. was kind I didn't really start working on any sort of like residual trauma you get from just feeling like your parents abandoned you, feeling betrayed, feeling like all these things you honestly as a parent, I don't think can really avoid was sending your kid to treatment. It's like, well, would you rather that be part of their like story of trauma and healing or would you rather like maybe risk them doing more damage to you, you, themselves, the family, all that stuff. So it's kind of like, that's how I look at it now is it's really just a choice between the two. And I think my parents definitely saved my life, whether or not that was, you know, gonna be short term or longer term. that started my whole journey with like my own mental health and really normalized like.

 

Ann Coleman

Exactly. Exactly.

 

Hayley Caddes

I literally thought I was only one going through anything. now I'm with a group of girls in the wilderness, a group of 50, 60 girls at my therapeutic boarding school where we all had different stories, but we all had trauma. We all had to talk about it openly in group therapy every single day. We had to deal with our social dynamics still. We had to do individual therapy. We had to do family therapy.

My program was actually really good with like bringing the family into it and doing parent trainings, family trainings, all that, like a lot of visits with the families. So that was actually like, thought really good on my program's part, because like you were kind of saying before was, like from day one there, they're kind of like, parents have a role to play in this too. Like Haley didn't just get this way in a vacuum, you know? So even if none of it was intentional. Like I never viewed anything my parents did as abusive and I like still don't like again, I feel bad because I'm like, sometimes I feel bad that things my mom said when I was younger just stuck with me that now we're very close. like, God, you know, I have some karma built up for when I have a kid. Yeah.

 

Ann Coleman

We don't know what we don't know. As a parent, unless you are taught all this stuff from day one, you just don't know. And we don't mean some of the things that we end up doing to our children. And we've all had those issues with parenting. mean, it's just an imperfect system. Parenting children is an imperfect system. So nobody's gonna do it perfectly well.

I want to ask you about this because I know a lot of listeners have heard of wilderness programs and I've had a lot of people in the Facebook group say, my God, I would never send my child to wilderness. And there's a lot of misconceptions about that. Although I will say the one that we considered sending my son to is the one where a child just died from suffocation. know, so I mean, but things do happen everywhere. But can you tell us a little bit about what a wilderness program is maybe and what you think about this, the pros and cons and that kind of thing.

 

Hayley Caddes

Yep. So yeah, both Colin and I say like looking back wilderness is probably the most positive part of our experience on the whole spectrum of, you know, both he and I would did wilderness. Usually it's like, go send your kid to wilderness for three, four months, then use that time to find like a longer term treatment center, especially if they're a teen, like especially if they're not 18, then young adults, don't know if they do wilderness as much, but like as a teen, it's wilderness and then like maybe finish high school in, know, a therapeutic boarding school, residential treatment center. So wilderness is shorter term. There's a lot of different types of programs now, but like the one we did, I guess now that we like know a lot of these programs, I guess mine was like nomadic.

So they essentially drop you off in the middle of ours is the national park in Utah. And there's a group of eight to ten other girls there at any given time. You're there with like two field guides as they're called, which in hindsight it was nice because they're like in hindsight probably 22 to 25 years old. So they're closer in age to you. They're also not therapists. They obviously have a lot of training to keep you safe and a lot of people are there. They're detoxing. Like they're going through a lot. Like I do not, I'm not jealous of those field guides job but.

But they were like, ended up being kind of like mentors to you, like almost like an older sister type of vibe. And essentially you would hike somewhere new every day or almost every day. You'd set up camp. We just had a tarp like strung between two trees, like huge tarp. And we all slept in sleeping bags under that. You know, they gave us warm clothes. We had to make fire with sticks every single day, bow drilling, which that's cool to learn how to do. It takes you a few weeks to learn, but.

You cook all your own food. You know, they give you your rations of food for a week and you carry that around. And I mean, so it's not like, my God, you're catching food. And like some places you do have to filter your water. think Collins, had to make his own backpack, like, which we didn't. But yeah, you just go like, mean, luckily I had grown up camping like all summer. Cause again, we didn't go to, we didn't go to church and my parents are like super outdoorsy and we lived in Utah. So that part, was like, whatever, but I had never back before like, that was definitely, definitely tough. But I also wasn't a cigarette smoker. So that was helpful because some girls came in and like were withdrawing from smoking cigarettes and like had lived at sea level their whole lives. And now we're at elevation having to hike. Those girls I was not jealous of either. But then and you know, there's different things, but essentially a therapist will come out into the field quote unquote once a week, they usually did like a group therapy session with all of us. And a lot of that was around like either share kind of what you're going through or like any sort of social like conflicts in the group would be like maybe aired out then and worked through. And then everyone had individual therapy. only at that time, like we didn't get any phone calls with parents. wrote like a letter once a week and vice versa. You know, we didn't see our parents. They came out and like picked us up at the end. And there's a whole ceremony and stuff like they make it.

I don't know, it was very empowering. I ended up being very proud of myself that I made it through. I hated every single day I was out there, but at the same time, but how can you kind of not? you still, you're with everyone there is in the same boat as you, even the guides, right? They're there for a week, two weeks at a time at least. So you're all out there surviving. So you either figure out how to have fun or build friendships or you don't, and you kind of have to to be okay there.

 

Ann Coleman

Yeah, forced friend group. Well, you know, that is what my son, when he came home, you know, he hated every day of residential and, you know, of course complained and cried and screamed at us and the whole nine. And if, know, we did the family therapy and all that stuff too. But when he came home, it was always, yeah, we did this at Newport. We did that at Newport. Yeah, I this guy at Newport. they, cooked that at Newport. And it was like he had been to summer camp.

So, you know, while he said he hated it while he was there, and this is what I tell parents, think it, now wilderness even, I think takes it a step further because I think you figure out so many things about yourself and like you said, what you're capable of and what you're able to go through on your own by yourself with a new group of people. But either way, you are able to reflect and those little seeds of whatever they were that were planted in group therapy or individual therapy then can thrive when you get back home if your parents know how to help you do that. I think that's one of the keys. so, you know, just so people know, yes, there have been issues with wilderness programs. There's going to be, you know, there's something, you can say something about almost every residential treatment or wilderness program. Things aren't perfect everywhere. They, you I think all of the people involved in generally do want to help the teenagers get through what they're, you know, what they're dealing with. So it's just a matter of doing your research and maybe getting referrals from other people that you know who have been through. Now, I think Colin's the one he went to your partner, his I think his closed, was it Red Rocks? Is that right? Is his is open.

 

Hayley Caddes

Red Cliff Ascent. Yeah, no, his is still open. Mine is closed, but his is open, yeah.

 

Ann Coleman

Yours closed. Okay, okay. so, you know, getting referrals from people who've been through it, I think is key, don't you?

 

Hayley Caddes

Totally, even, I mean, just to kind of say a little bit about what we do now. So Colin and I run a company called Not Therapy. We've been doing it just a little over 10 months together now. And over the last year, we've worked with about 32 teens and young adults. And two thirds of those are young people transitioning out of treatment centers. So both teens and young adults often like longer term residential treatment centers, mainly because we're using our own experience as life coaches to help these young people. Because there's just certain things you will not get. I get that it's so hard for parents to go through this and like I really have so much like respect and sympathy for them. And I put my parents through a lot of shit. like, you know, again, and you can really build a beautiful relationship with your kids after might take a few years, but that's okay.

But, you know, it's, but there's certain things that you just don't understand unless you've literally been there in wilderness. You've been in these treatment centers, you've had to leave and both Collin and I pretty much went straight to college. Like, so essentially having no contact with the outside world for over a year and a half and being with the same group of kind of crazy people, love them. So the three of my best friends still to this day are from my therapeutic boarding school.

I'm gonna be in one of their weddings in like six months. So I mean, like you do to your point, can build really close like vulnerable relationships. But for example, then you leave and you go to college or honestly even harder, go back to high school. If they're younger, God, like that's really hard. And you're now used to having built relationships through group therapy that are super trauma-informed, vulnerable, supportive different than any type of relationships you've had in your life before, and now you're in high school or college and no other 16, 17, 18 year olds are at all even close to being on that same page. Some will be, like we help our clients find them, but we're like, yeah, a lot of them, you feel so lonely and isolated after you leave, like, and that's one piece of it is that, that relationship piece. So that's a huge thing we help young people usually work with them for three months minimum and usually six months max just helping them react with me and it's different for what everyone's going through kind of how we're helping them. Essentially we're like, yeah, no one else is going to know therapists like really told me, yeah, like, yeah, that makes sense that you're lonely after that. They're kind of like, aren't you happy you're out? I'm like, yeah, but I kind of miss my friends and all I wanted to do is get out when I was there. But now I'm like, really sad and lonely. can't even talk to my friends that are still there because they don't have cell phones and I don't know where they're ending up. They're all over the country. Like they don't have my number, you know, so then it took years for me even to reconnect with the girls I'm best friends with now. I didn't even like them in treatment, honestly, but then we were all in New York together. And so, yeah.

 

Ann Coleman

wow, I didn't even think about that. That's right, you wouldn't be able to like swap Snapchat while you're there, you know?

 

Hayley Caddes

Not really. now you could probably find them. Like we could at the time usually find them on Instagram and Facebook. But still, I mean, it was crazy. Yeah.

 

Ann Coleman

Well, let's talk about that. So kids, mean, because most of my listeners, think, have if their child is going through this, they're going to be probably in high school. And a lot of them do. You know, it is expensive to send your kid to therapeutic boarding school. I mean, it is, you know, it's outrageously expensive. Wilderness is outrageously expensive and insurance does not cover either one. So I'm sure a lot of my listeners will send their kid to residential like we did, which is covered by insurance. And then, you you have no choice but to bring them back home. And we, you know, my son was 18. It was the middle of his senior year. We brought him back home and just did it, you know, everything online, but, took him to a totally different town. So he would not be back with the same group of people. But, you know, what do you tell parents then who, you know, are bringing their kid, their high school or we'll say they're in know, 10th, 11th grade, 12th grade, what do you tell people and what is that transition like? I mean, just talk to me about that.

 

Hayley Caddes

So I think one of the biggest things we've even learned over the last year, right? Because like I said, we went right to college and in a lot of ways that's, I've now realized that's an easier transition than going back to high school. I think so. Yeah. I mean, cause everyone's getting a fresh start your freshman year of college. So, you know, but yeah. So high school, one thing we've learned that's huge is number one, giving your kid like a choice in kind of who that, cause they're going to need usually maybe it's a new school, it's usually like a therapist or like working with us as an example or a physical trainer or like there really is a family therapist. Like there, I see a big difference in families who have like almost assembled like a team around their kids as best as they possibly can, like right as soon as they get home essentially. And one thing we've seen work really well is like, hey, you know, Haley, I've picked out here like two, three therapists that, and we help families do this a lot, but like they're here two, three therapists in the area for you to choose from. Usually I don't recommend going back to their old therapist if they had one before, cause like, I don't know if that's an old relationship that didn't work out. but okay. So now let's go to like an intro session to each of them and you get to pick, right? Okay. Here's two, three psychiatrists. If they're on meds, get a psychiatrist set up immediately. Like as you get home for sure.

If they're not on medicine, you're fine. Here's two, three family therapists. You get to pick the one we work with. Again, you don't need all of these things, but that's something we help if we're working with someone coming right out of treatment. Usually we'll talk to their therapist at treatment, kind of get a sense. mean, we're not doctors, so we're not going to necessarily be like, yeah. We just don't deny anyone based on their diagnosis, because we're like, that's just the cards you've been dealt, so we'll help you play with them essentially. But having that team and giving your kid choice. then what we do, so the thing to understand after leaving treatment is, and being in high school, you don't really have a lot of choice for anything in general, right? So what we do is like, everyone we work with is, okay, what is it that you want your life to look like? In high school, might be, who do you want your, what type of friends do you wanna be around? What type of activities do you wanna be doing that actually give you joy?

Are you wanting to go to college? Are you wanting to get your driver's license? Are you wanting to, you know, a lot of them are like, I just want freedom. I'm like, okay, that helps us align like why continuing to go to high school is important and all these things. like in treatment, like I said, you're so focused on getting out of there. And many people have different methods of going through that process, got super, I ran away from treatment after the, was there for two months, my residential treatment center. So that's after wilderness even. So I'd been already in the process five months, ran away, dumb idea, came back, or was brought back. And, yeah, I mean, honestly, I'm like, I think you have to do it just to test the boundaries. Like, but, then I realized, the only one who's getting me out of here is me. So like I need to, so I became super compliant. Anyway, that was a tangent, but.

You know, when you're getting out, you're like, I just want to get out. But then your treatment centers don't do a great job of, even for young adults, I don't think they do a super great job of helping you set goals, even like a three month goal down the line for the future. Like I said, we usually work with people three to six months. So we'll help them. be like, what do want your life to look like in three months? If you look back three months down the road, you're like, wow, that was amazing. I feel great. I'm doing great. I'm proud of myself.

What does that look like? And then we just help them reverse engineer. we've, you you don't know, most people aren't even good at setting and like achieving goals. And they're also, even if their parents are good at that, they're not going to listen. And so we just help them reverse engineer that down to, okay, now what do you have to do on a daily basis to make this a reality? In high school, it's going to be going to high school, making friends piece of it. Like, you know, that's why we always tell treatment centers or like you should have like an alumni kind of support group in that just so they can talk to each other. You don't even don't even monitor it. Like who even cares? Like just like connect them to each other. Yeah. No.

 

Ann Coleman

That's a great idea because that's, I hate to interrupt, but the friends. mean, that's the biggest problem that I think, you know, as parents we're like, well, they can't go back to the same friend group. Can they go back to the same friend group that they were doing these things with to begin with? how do you help teens with that? I mean, they're the only friends they have. What the hell are they supposed to do?

 

Hayley Caddes

Mm-hmm. I mean, usually, like, I'm never going to be one. And also we're like, we only work with people if, like, the teen or young adult is like, yes, I want to work with you and do this. So that's number one. But number two, we're like, I'm like, yeah, if you want to see, I saw my old friends, like when I literally flew back to Utah, because I had no friends in California at the time, saw my old friends. And what we do is just help them think about, how it went after you hang out with them and be like, how did that feel? Like was it weird? Was it awkward? I mean, you've grown usually into a totally different person and they may have too. And so, I mean, I'm never going to discourage them to like hang out with old friends. I'll help them think about it before. If it's like, maybe you did drugs with them a lot, like da, da, da, da, da. Yeah, exactly. I know, but exactly.

 

Ann Coleman

My God, yeah, see, that's why as parents, we're like, my God, no, they can't be around those old friends. What if they, you know, so what do you tell parents?

 

Hayley Caddes

Yeah, I'm like, mean, most of the time, if you're forbidding your kid to do something, they're going to find a way to do it. Like you probably learned that from the past. So that's why I'm like, you know, here's the thing. It's, I always think it's better for, if you can set up a, you know, a family culture almost for lack of a better term of like, Hey, we're not, we're just here to support you. Like, we're not going to judge you for what you do. We expect there to be like slip ups or whatever. And you know, now you're in the driver's seat, you get to decide how you want your life to look. And so, you know, if you hang out with friends and maybe the boundary is like, we don't want you to smoke weed or do drugs. I mean, if that's the case, then you're probably going to need to be like drug testing them so that there is some sort of if they're living at home, we're always like, how are you going to know if they're like doing drugs and you're saying don't do drugs? You know what I mean? So have those boundaries set up of like, here are the three deal breakers, like don't do drugs, I don't know, don't drive high, and like, you know, we take your cell phone at 11 PM or something like that, or here's your curfew and have the exact, like, you know, things that are taken away or whatever, from you, if you break those rules or whatever, like then beyond that, encourage honesty.

 

Ann Coleman

Yeah, yeah. So that is that a contract?

 

Hayley Caddes

I mean, we don't like it. We like to do it more of as a goals contract, cause we don't really like the home contract cause that's usually a laundry list of things you can't do.

That's why we're all, when we start recruiting families, we tell the parents, okay, look at your home contract, fine. What are, like, the literally three, like, just deal breakers you are not going to tolerate, that you're also willing to, like, have, like, discipline them around. Like, if you're not willing to follow through with the things you say you're gonna do, in terms of...consequences, then there is no point in following through with that. Like if you're not going to actually take their phone away, if they're staying up all night on their phone, then that's not a deal breaker, clearly. So we try to narrow it down very specific so that our clients know exactly what they're giving up if they break this rule. But then with the clients, we're like, OK, what are your goals? And like I said, we boil it down and we share that with the family of here's kind of the daily basis, like what you're going to be doing.

Here's where we're gonna be in a month, here's where we're gonna be in three months. And usually we also encourage parents to set goals for themselves that maybe have nothing to do with their kids. Like I wanna work out three times a week or something and be like, this is what I'm holding myself to. Just because that like solidarity of having your family in it with you, I think is very meaningful even if you pretend not to care. But knowing my family was like in it with me was one of the most valuable things looking back that I felt like I had a baseline of support from them even though I still felt misunderstood by them. still didn't want to listen to them. They don't want to follow their rules, but I couldn't deny like they were doing therapy. They were supporting me. They were doing all these things. So.

 

Ann Coleman

Well, that's a good point. mean, so when you say that, that, you know, the family's in it with you. So what's your advice to parents about that part of it? Because, you know, we were talking, you know, before we got, went on air that, you know, lot of parents feel like, well, I'm just going to send my kid off. They're going to be fixed. They're going to come back home and we're going to proceed. And so there's like, yeah, a some miscommunication there, I think for parents, understanding that that's not necessarily the way things work. So can you speak to that a little bit?

 

Hayley Caddes

Yeah, so I think like if you think about it as, okay, maybe your kid's been gone three months, a year, 18 months, whatever. Yeah, even if you have been doing the family portion of whatever program ideally they have for you, amazing, do all of that stuff, but you just kind of had a break from your kid being home for a year or so. And so if you think like they aren't gonna trigger you anymore when they go back into...similar same behaviors, like they didn't fundamentally change as a person. you know, they, that's not, they just have better tools now and maybe more self-awareness and a better way of like looking at things and dealing with their own stuff, but they're still going to trigger you and like make you upset. So I always say like, how can you, let's say your kid comes back and like hasn't changed at all. That's usually not the case, but like, let's say it is. How are you taking care of yourself and how are you gonna be like okay with that, right? And part of that may be like holding very strict, like a few strict boundaries and rules, right? A lot of that I think is usually gonna be being in therapy yourself or having a parent coach or doing like, love what you're doing with parent camp, like something like that, having your own support group. Like we do parent support groups for the parents we work with of just like, hey, this is normal, it's okay. But how, I'm always just like, how are you taking care of yourself.

Even if your kid is like doing the things you thought they were never going to do again because I went to treatment because they're going to they're going to test even if they're not trying to test your boundaries they're going to be like well I haven't smoked weed in a year like maybe I'll smoke again and like maybe it won't be the same because now I know all these things and they may or may not be right you know like yeah

 

Ann Coleman

Yeah, well, and that's a good point. think parents, lot of parents would absolutely freak out if, you know, their kid does like fall off the wagon or whatever, whatever you call it these days. But what, you know, what, what do you say about that? I mean, you said a little bit ago, you know, there, there are going to be slip ups. So how do parents look at that and not freak out and go, my God, we did all this stuff, and now here we go again. I mean, how do you change that mindset?

 

Hayley Caddes

Yeah, there are a few different ways. Like one thing, especially if they're like young adults or 18 or close to that age or whatever, we're like, okay, if they're not living at home or they're in college or something and they're reaching all the goals, like they're getting good grades, they're going to class, they're in a club, whatever it is that they have for their personal goals. And you didn't know what they were like doing outside of that, particularly with weed, this is like.

I mean, I would say most of our clients end up, like young adults, up like trying that or going back to that or like full time sobriety is not a goal of theirs. And we're like, okay, well, is it getting in the way of your goals? Okay, if not, fine. Like maybe you smoke at the end of the day. Okay, that's your prerogative. We'll keep talking to you about it and helping you monitor it and see how it makes you feel. But we also have parents like if they weren't at home, but they were doing all the things they said they were gonna do. Like, would you know or really care that like this was happening? And a lot of times, I mean, I know that's a huge oversimplification, like much easier said than done to have that mindset. But like, that's what's gonna happen eventually. Ideally, they leave home, you know, and so younger, it's kind of like, again, if that's like a big deal breaker, usually we're like, then you have to know what you're gonna do if they break that rule.

Again, usually I'm just like, if it's kind of the same thing, I'm like, if they're going to school, if they're respecting like your rules at home, like maybe it's doing chores, whatever it is that like you need them to do. And if they're, you I have like some sort of like social group or friends or they're doing an activity or something. And then they're like smoking weed on the weekends or something. Like how much, how much of like, what are you going to die on that Hill? And some parents want to die on that.

Okay, like again, that's for them to think. We just try to encourage them. We never give like, we're not parent coaches. So we're not, we don't really know. That's why we like, you know, collaborating with people like yourself and all this stuff, because we're like, we don't really, we don't have kids. Like, so I'm sure my opinion will change about this in like 10, 20 years. So.

 

Ann Coleman

Well, no, but I think it's a good way for parents to think of it from your point of view because you're dealing with these kids and you know, and you can tell the parents rationally, look, they're doing everything they need to do. They're meeting their goals. If your kid was not at home and they were off in college, you wouldn't even know if they were smoking weed on the weekends or every single night. You just see the grades, you would talk to them. If it's not impacting them emotionally and they're not going off the deep end and they're not having to go to the ER because they're having fits of rage or whatever, you wouldn't know that. So I think that's a very good point for parents to realize that don't focus solely on that issue of, my gosh, are they doing this? Are they still smoking weed? Are they still drinking somewhere?

Obviously, we have to for safety reasons and in all kinds of reasons, but if they are doing better in general and they're reaching their goals and this is not the same issue as it was before, it's not ruining their life and it's not destroying your family relationship, then yeah, there's something to be said for that. And I think that's good for people to realize.

Yeah, I think the biggest thing, because eventually they will move out, go to college, all that stuff sooner than maybe you think, right? Even if they're still in high school at this point. And what you don't want to have happen is them to go off and not feel like they can call you for support. I mean, I'm talking about mainly emotional support so you don't want to like alienate them. That's why we're always like, let us do the, like. The logistical, like almost the admin stuff of like, of raising a kid, especially post-treatment or that's having a lot of issues. Cause like, we've had to do this for ourselves on the daily for the last 10, 12 years and like done it for many, many teens and young adults. So like, let us do that. So you can kind of try to figure out how you personally can get to a point where you're acting in this relationship in like the ideal way you want to parent or be in a relationship with your kid. They might not be ready for that, but that doesn't mean you can't already be kind of in that space of like, is how, you know, this is, this is just how I want to be treating my kid and how I want to be interacting with my kid. Again, I know this is all like, it doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't happen after treatment.

But that's a big reason why we do what we do, because we're like, it's still a, treatment's the beginning of it. Or like when you first send your kid to therapy, that's just the beginning of this. Like figuring out as your brain's developing, as you're growing up, as you're figuring out who you are outside of the home, outside of the family. I mean, it's just a process regardless of like, if you're labeled a troubled teen or not. So I think that's what we try to remind parents of and yeah.

 

Ann Coleman

Exactly, exactly. Well, I think what you guys are doing is so awesome. It is so needed. And I know you're going to be busy, busy, busy for years to come. Unfortunately, I guess you will. I mean, we're, you know, there are always going to be kids who, you know, have these issues and need help. The transition out is the big deal. know, getting them there and getting them the help they need is the easiest part of it. I think it's the, you know, the afterwards and coming home. That's the part that we parents don't know how to deal with and to have a couple of people, young people like you guys who can act as that mentor and, you know, hold their hand and guide them and kind of do the tough parts that the parents are gonna have a much harder time doing. And the kids are not gonna listen to the parents as much as they will to you guys who have lived it and have been through it. And I think that is the key there is that you've lived it.

 

Hayley Caddes

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, like both Colin and I, did not plan to work in the mental health space. We're not trained therapists. We're not going to be trained therapists. Like, so we did not, you know, we've had a whole career in our twenties. Like I've had like five different careers. Like I started a different company before this. mean, so like we know kind of that nonlinear path and how to figure out where you want to be eventually. And that it is a process really your whole life is what I'm discovering, but.

So we're coming not from a place of, this is clinical and this is, know, necessary. I mean, that's, leave to clinicians, we leave to people like you, where it's like, this is like research backed and like, these are the tools. Like we send them to the right places for that stuff. But we're like, here's the type of resilience and grit you're going to need just to like figure out who you are. And like, it's a, we had to take many years to figure it out. So like, let us give you the cheat codes. That's what I always said. I was like, I wish I just had an older sister who could lay it out for me and say, here are the cheat codes. Here's what you need to worry about. Here's what you don't need to worry about. Forgive yourself for this. Work on this. And let's go. Because I just was like, do I really have to figure this out? Nearly by trial and error, completely on my own. So that's our goal is to get the people we work with and their families to that place where they're really enjoying the life they're living a lot sooner.

 

Ann Coleman

Yep. Well, I applaud you for it. And I know you guys are doing great work with lots of families who really appreciate it. So thank you so much and thank you for being here. And I look forward to talking to you really soon again.

 

Hayley Caddes

Thanks.

 

Ann Coleman

I’ll say it again, I think the work Hayley and Colin are doing in Not Therapy coaching is so very important.

If you’re trying to figure out where to go or what to do with your teenager right now – perhaps you’re trying to decide if they need the level of care you think they might or they’ve been in treatment and are still struggling or are currently in a program and coming home soon, they can help.

You can find them at nottherapy.me – I’ll have the link in the episode description where you’re listening right now.

Alright, that’s it for Speaking of Teens today. Thanks so much for sticking around until the end. I really hope my conversation with Hayley helped you have not only a little more hope about your teen’s future but helped you see things a little differently regarding their journey after treatment.

I appreciate you being here – whether you’re a brand-new listener or have been around since the beginning – thank you.

And if you appreciate what I’m doing here on the show, would you please consider helping me reach other parents like you? I’m here to make a difference for families, but I need your help to do that. Would you please consider sharing the podcast with friends, people in your circle or in your online communities? Let’s get this information into the earbuds of as many parents as we can.

And if you need a little support in your journey right now, join our Facebook group – the link is at the very bottom of the episode description where you’re listening.

Until next time, remember to try and connect with your teen in some small way, each and every day.